Discussion about Shoshone in BNW

[MynameisOda]

I agree swordsman can be frustrating at times, but one thing I do to change up the game from time to time is focus on amassing an army revolving around a certain unit. It's a neat little way to learn about the unit's strengths and weaknesses from a different POV.

E.g. Build up a Maori Warrior dominant army with Polynesia. Or a Hoplite-Companion Cavalry dominant army with Greece. I'll even Sometimes see how much I can attack/defend using just Unique Units

May not always be the best strategy wise, but it's fun and adds a different sort of "challenge" if the regular game gets too repetitive

...or any time I play Montezuma. The upgraded Jaguar army is simply fantastic (supplemented by ranged units of course).

I see the Shoshone as one of the worst new 9. I think Ethiopia overall is more balanced and has more staying power. I cannot see the pathfinder being useful on high levels unless you can beeline optics on an archipelago map and island hop. Having extra tiles to start is nice, but I'm never so poor that I would not be able to afford necessary tiles immediately, or out of options where I have to settle a city far away from the nearest useful resource. The friendly territory bonus is good, but unless it better than Ethiopia's I don't have any intention of playing them.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I see the Shoshone as one of the worst new 9

Questionable. There are some interesting strategies, especially if you could select ancient ruins bonus from the whole list. I.e. if you could find 2 ancient ruins and choose faith and culture from them (taking Piety), you could easily overcome much more religious civs.

 

[MynameisOda]

Questionable. There are some interesting strategies, especially if you could select ancient ruins bonus from the whole list. I.e. if you could find 2 ancient ruins and choose faith and culture from them (taking Piety), you could easily overcome much more religious civs.

That's true. I'm not taking into account the new culture dynamic. However, by the time I have invested into building (or have enough money to purchase) a Scout, all ruins are usually gone. I usually ever find 3 before the AI, and I'm not going to wait to build a Pathfinder to get a ruin I just found with my warrior. Like I said, on an archipelago, it could be extremely useful.

That said, I'm only comparing it to the new 9. My personal take has Poland, Brazil, Assyria, Zulu, Morocco, and Venice higher. I'd still place it higher than a good number of current civs, assuming of course they haven't been buffed.

 

[Arachnofiend]

That's true. I'm not taking into account the new culture dynamic. However, by the time I have invested into building (or have enough money to purchase) a Scout, all ruins are usually gone. I usually ever find 3 before the AI, and I'm not going to wait to build a Pathfinder to get a ruin I just found with my warrior. Like I said, on an archipelago, it could be extremely useful.

Eh? Why so? A Scout should be your first build, tbh. What else is there to build before researching any techs?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

On the other hand, if the AI is half decent at picking ruin rewards, the Shoshone could be quite competitive in the hands of the AI, especially at high levels when the AI starts with Pathfinders.

 

[werothegreat]

Eh? Why so? A Scout should be your first build, tbh. What else is there to build before researching any techs?

Monument?

 

[Arachnofiend]

Monument?

True. I usually just get the Monument for free through Legalism though. If I end up taking Liberty I prefer to have the delayed first policy from not building the Monument until later so that I can scout around and see if I actually want to take Liberty first.

 

[adwcta]

Not true. The Pathfinder can choose to upgrade to an Archer.

The one thing the Warrior can do the Pathfinder cannot is take cities after being upgraded, basically.

And waste a ruin? You're saying between a pop, a settler, a culture bonus, a free tech, a faith boost.... you'd prefer to "upgrade" the Pathfinder into an Archer with one of them?

Even if you'd do that (which, would not be optimal), you still can't guarantee to find enough rooms for every Pathfinder you make.

edit: Wait, or are you saying it's been confirmed that Pathfinder naturally upgrades to an Archer w/ gold as part of its specialness (e.g. battering ram, a spearman replacement, upgrades to catapult)?

 

[Arachnofiend]

I'm assuming that there are limits to the upgrades, because if you can just pick free tech every time that is going to be monstrously dumb.

 

[Tsar NicholasII]

I'm assuming that there are limits to the upgrades, because if you can just pick free tech every time that is going to be monstrously dumb.

Agreed, I was thinking it would be like the Maya's ability in that they can only choose each one once until they have chosen each possibility then it resets the choices.

 

[IkM]

I'm looking forward to playing the Shoshone. Pathfinder looks fantastic.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I'm assuming that there are limits to the upgrades, because if you can just pick free tech every time that is going to be monstrously dumb.

I'm not so sure. On standard continents/hemispheres (which could be considered a balanced setup) you could found 2-3 ruins based on your difficulty level if you build scout first. 2-3 free early techs is a good, but is it overpowered? I doubt so, considering pathfinding is the biggest ability of Shoshones.

Actually at the first ruins I'd rather choose faith even if I'm not going religious - just to have instant pantheon without efforts.

 

[Katharsis]

Eh? Why so? A Scout should be your first build, tbh. What else is there to build before researching any techs?

The problem is not all of us play in standard speed. In marathon scout needs ~15 turns if you are lucky with a hill start or smth.

And there would be probably no ruins left after 15 turns so..

I think as a part of their ua they can start with pathfinder instead of warrior.

 

[SamBC]

Another advantage to the Warrior, over Pathfinder, is that they can get combat promotions (assuming the pathfinder has the usual scout promotion path).

 

[Shadow717]

The problem is not all of us play in standard speed. In marathon scout needs ~15 turns if you are lucky with a hill start or smth.

And there would be probably no ruins left after 15 turns so..

I think as a part of their ua they can start with pathfinder instead of warrior.

Well the game isn't balanced around marathon, so that's not an entirely valid complaint. Plenty of Civs bonuses become lessened or strengthened when you change the game pace.

Another advantage to the Warrior, over Pathfinder, is that they can get combat promotions (assuming the pathfinder has the usual scout promotion path).

Although its not quite as good as the regular shock/drill, the scouts survivalism upgrades are a nice replacement to those.


I'm looking forward to figuring out exactly what the Shoshone do, but sadly right now we are still working with a leak so not everything is clear, or even guaranteed. However I think they could quickly become a favorite civ of mine

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Well the game isn't balanced around marathon, so that's not an entirely valid complaint. Plenty of Civs bonuses become lessened or strengthened when you change the game pace.



Although its not quite as good as the regular shock/drill, the scouts survivalism upgrades are a nice replacement to those.


I'm looking forward to figuring out exactly what the Shoshone do, but sadly right now we are still working with a leak so not everything is clear, or even guaranteed. However I think they could quickly become a favorite civ of mine

I agree, not only do I have a soft spot for any Northern American Natives (Sitting Bull was my favourite leaderi n Civ 4 purely on his leaderscreen) but their Pathfinder is just to die for, it's so good that I even began playing with Ancient Ruins on in Hotseat just so they can use it whenever it happens.

 

[SkaisonFire]

Shoshone are definitely the civ i will first play as, being a culture player myself I love the fact that you gain a full ring of tiles with no culture cost, getting a lot of archeology sites without having to expand like crazy plus turtle bonusses, AND a fun unique scout, this could very well be a top culture civ.

 

[boghog]

getting a lot of archeology sites without having to expand like crazy

Sorry if I'm being slow, but I can't see how you figure you'd get those as a Shoshone player.

 

[Bakspatel]

getting a lot of archeology sites without having to expand like crazy

You do know that you require a bit of combat during the time and can only see archaeological sites at the Industrial age? Plus you'll need archaeologists for them, not scouts.

 

[Seek]

Well the game isn't balanced around marathon, so that's not an entirely valid complaint. Plenty of Civs bonuses become lessened or strengthened when you change the game pace.

From my understanding marathon is balanced with huge maps, epic with large, etc. On a huge map going scout first seems like a necessity; there should still be plenty of ruins around.

Shoshone are definitely the civ i will first play as, being a culture player myself I love the fact that you gain a full ring of tiles with no culture cost, getting a lot of archeology sites without having to expand like crazy plus turtle bonusses, AND a fun unique scout, this could very well be a top culture civ.

Unfortunately, it hasn't been confirmed that they will get the full second ring - it might just be three tiles in the second ring.