Discussion thread for exploits and strategies

[solenoozerec]

I think you should have a list of allowed mods and not try to use protection, but let the players enforce the rules themselves.

I believe the better way is to incorporate GOTM proved modes into protected saves and give people an option to use those mods. It seems to me that this is the way how the staff is going to proceed and I fully support it.

The danger is not intentional use of disallowed modes. This is not a problem for veterans, but will be a problem for newcomers. In average, they are compulsive. They play first, then they study rules, articles, etc.

The result will be a mess for stuff and a lot of frustration for newcomers.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I believe the better way is to incorporate GOTM proved modes into protected saves and give people an option to use those mods. It seems to me that this is the way how the staff is going to proceed and I fully support it.

The problem is that there are too many choices and I'm afraid that personal preference will be too idiosyncratic.

If they include all of the major mods that significantly improve gameplay, I'll certainly be happy. But I'm not sure that any two players will agree on exactly which ones those are.

I'm afraid that we'll end up with just something like the HOF mod, which is so minimal.

 

[Dianthus]

I'm afraid that we'll end up with just something like the HOF mod, which is so minimal.

The current HOF mod is more a proof of concept than a final version. We were trying to prove that we could create a mod where parts could be enabled/disabled according to user preference without altering the assets (python/xml). There haven't been many users requesting extra stuff added to it, but it's certainly possible.

 

[solenoozerec]

I think GOTM mode should allow using only a proportion of its components to reflect player's idiosyncrasies. Of course GOTM mode also will evolve, like Dianthus's and Ainwood's tools for civ3.

 

[robboo]

Just remember some off us cant run some of the mods right now with out the seeing the blue screen every other turn. Should we be punished or given a disadvantage because of this.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Just remember some off us cant run some of the mods right now with out the seeing the blue screen every other turn. Should we be punished or given a disadvantage because of this.

Some people have slower computers, or inferior graphics hardware, and the game runs slower on their machines. That doesn't mean we should artificially slow the game down for everyone else, just to be "fair".

The mods in question all just make the game easier and more enjoyable to play, without changing the results. Just like having a faster computer or a bigger monitor or a better video card.

 

[robboo]

I understad that...but what I am saying is that if the MOD is required to play then some of us might not be able to ENJOY our GOTM games and thereby stop playing.

I for one cant use the autolog mod for some reason. I am just happy to be able to play. Anything which will limit the GOTM to people who have the wizz-bang computers is wrong. (just to add I doubt the staff will do such a thing.)

 

[AlanH]

If/when we do introduce a GOTM mod it will not be compulsory to use it all. The proof of concept testing being done in HoF right now allows components of the mod to be turned off, and this would be our objective too.

 

[Narakael]

I am hoping to find the time to start the GOTM 03 next week and wanted to check something beforehand.

For the GOTM 02, as I had decided to settle on the starting spot, I was able to run some practice games having a good idea of the layout. But for the GOTM 03 I am strongly considering moving to another tile.

In order to run practice games with a similar layout, I would have to play the few initial turns, then save after founding my first city, then run my practice games. So my first session would be very short. Would that still be fine ?

Narakael

 

[Samson]

Is it legal, and if there is a difference moral, to play until the first spoiler thread conditions are met, read the first spoiler, and then decide how to finish the game (eg. between fast diplo, fast space race or milk)?

 

[DaviddesJ]

Is it legal, and if there is a difference moral, to play until the first spoiler thread conditions are met, read the first spoiler, and then decide how to finish the game (eg. between fast diplo, fast space race or milk)?

Definitely ok, both "legally" and "morally". If you follow the spoiler rules, then any information you get from the spoiler thread is fair game to use as you wish.

P.S. One exception would be if people post more in the spoiler thread than they are supposed to, you shouldn't use that information. Same as any information about the game posted improperly in non-spoiler threads.

 

[.Shane.]

This is not an exploit at all IMO since it is just a question of timing. You must still spend the same worker turns by chopping.

Right and there is a cost in that you waste worker moves by going to the same forest twice.

Interesting idea.

 

[pnp_dredd]

Narakael raises an interesting question. Can you recreate a map that is exactly the same as your map, to test out different starts?

My take on this is that it's OK before you open the save (i.e. using the picture from the pre-release thread), but not after you have played turns and exposed more of the map.

You are definately allowed to take a screenshot, and use an excel sheet to plot out your moves, but I don't think you should be allowed to create a precise copy of the map and play it out diffeernt ways.

If not at this stage (opening the save), then where would you draw the line? Once you have seen most of the map, can you recreate the game and play it out? That seems like cheating to me (and it would take forever).

 

[DaviddesJ]

Narakael raises an interesting question. Can you recreate a map that is exactly the same as your map, to test out different starts?

Yes.

Once you have seen most of the map, can you recreate the game and play it out? That seems like cheating to me (and it would take forever).

It seems perfectly fine to me. It's not as if the game will go exactly the same way---there are lots of random factors too.

 

[Stormreaver]

Narakael raises an interesting question. Can you recreate a map that is exactly the same as your map, to test out different starts?

My take on this is that it's OK before you open the save (i.e. using the picture from the pre-release thread), but not after you have played turns and exposed more of the map.

You are definately allowed to take a screenshot, and use an excel sheet to plot out your moves, but I don't think you should be allowed to create a precise copy of the map and play it out diffeernt ways.

If not at this stage (opening the save), then where would you draw the line? Once you have seen most of the map, can you recreate the game and play it out? That seems like cheating to me (and it would take forever).

Define recreate? As long as you copy only the part of the map you've exposed, I don't see the problem...

 

[DaveMcW]

Recreating the map may be useful for inexperienced players, but I doubt it will help the top players. They will already have their strategy in place before the map is fully explored.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Yes.



It seems perfectly fine to me. It's not as if the game will go exactly the same way---there are lots of random factors too.

You mean it would be ok to play the original save till you get a rough view of the world and the replay the game? Or do you mean only practice games with the same settings, but not "official" saved game?
Am I missing something?

 

[AlanH]

You mean it would be ok to play the original save till you get a rough view of the world and the replay the game?

Absolutely not!

Or do you mean only practice games with the same settings, but not "official" saved game?

Putting words into the mouths of the posters, I think they are saying you can build another map that has the same characteristics as the parts of the competition one that you can see, but contains guesses for all the parts that you cannot see, and then use it for trial and error practice sessions.

I disagree with the posters who are condoning this, as I consider it to be counter the spirit of the competition. Your objective in doing it would be to build a rather complex simulator to use as a practice map. If its behaviour doesn't match that of the game map as you proceed it won't be much use to you. So, are you going to refine it after each move until it does? If and when it's behaviour does match that of the game, to within useful tolerances, then you have, by luck or by hard graft, created a fair copy of the game map. At that point you are effectively reloading the game each time you try a different move sequence using your practice map.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I disagree with the posters who are condoning this, as I consider it to be counter the spirit of the competition. Your objective in doing it would be to build a rather complex simulator to use as a practice map. If its behaviour doesn't match that of the game map as you proceed it won't be much use to you. So, are you going to refine it after each move until it does? If and when it's behaviour does match that of the game, to within useful tolerances, then you have, by luck or by hard graft, created a fair copy of the game map. At that point you are effectively reloading the game each time you try a different move sequence using your practice map.

I don't think this will work nearly as well as you seem to think. I think it's a huge effort to get at most a modest benefit. The hard part of playing well isn't understanding what the opponents will do, anyway. It's figuring out a plan for what you want to do to accomplish your goals.

We seem to have done just fine for 5 years without any rules about this sort of thing for Civ3 GOTM.

I don't really care though. It's not like I'm going to do this myself. I don't even have time to play the GOTM once.

 

[AlanH]

I obviously expressed myself badly - blame the wee small hours of the morning.

My point is that anyone attempting such an emulation of the competition map is working against the spirit of the GOTM rules, since, *if* they achieved their objective, they would be reloading something close to the actual map.

I agree completely that any such effort is most likely to be wasted, but I would prefer not to encourage players even to try. I wasn't proposing that we add any rules.