DLC business model hurting your company 2k/Firaxis

There are a lot of things about the way the modern video game industry works that frustrate me. Loot boxes, pre-orders, overpriced DLC, mandatory annual release schedules...

I do think that paying extra for a deluxe edition that will contain DLC later is kinda scammy. You're asking the consumer to pay, in advance, for something that you havent made yet. It's especially true when you don't even know what that DLC would be, or when it's part of a pre-order and you don't even know if the product is any good yet.

In Civ V, wasn't the deluxe edition bonus a bunch of map packs or something like that? That was crap. At least VI gave full civs. I would've prefered a couple of the DLC have been alternate leader packs with like 3 or 5 new leaders for existing civs, but whatever.

For me though, the thing that frustrates me more about Civ VI's DLC model in particular was that they seem to have come at the cost of improvements to the core game. I have A LOT of complaints with the core Civ VI experience. Some have been addressed by patches (the extra layer for religioys units was one of the best ones, IMO), but neither the DLC nor Rise & Fall made substantial improvements to A.I., unit balance, unit variety, interface (STILL no build queue?!), and so forth.

Well, generally speaking, it's probably different teams that work on DLC content vs stuff like AI improvements, so I don't think the DLC came at the "cost" of the rest; I think those things are lacking more because the civ6 team simply doesn't have them high on their priority list.

But the rest of your post I agree with. Pre-ordering is already a shaky enough proposition that we have to accept what they give us in good faith that also asking us to trust that they'll give us value from the DLC packs definitely made me and I'm sure many other people hesitant about buying the deluxe edition. Without having seen the game yet, trusting them to give value for DLC was just something that I didn't quite trust of them. In retrospect, I would have opted for the DLC pack, since I feel like they have done a good job with the DLC, and especially with adding the 2 extra free packs, definitely it turned in good value. The main thing I will fault them is that I think at the same time as they announced they were adding the 2 extra packs, they should have also come out with the "DD Upgrade" package for the same 20$ extra - I would have gladly paid for that. And it is also a little surprising that the DLC itself has not had any sales on them save for 3rd party sites - it still feels to me that by now, they would get more than twice the number of sales of them if they cut the prices in half of the DLC. But I'm not a marketing person at 2K/Firaxis, so maybe there's a reason they're not offering that.

video games have never been more expensive to make and have never been cheaper inflationwise for the customer (and thats not even taking into account steam sales), and people are still complaining.....

Its just sad how people take more effort in finding something to complain about, rather than enjoying their purchase. personally, I blame the likes of TB and Jimquisition who basicly say "if you enjoy a game, you are dumb, cause everything is ****", all coloured by their nostalgia glasses


Speakin of dumb, do never buy a game at full price, there are enough ways around it. hell, even Ubisoft hands out -20% coupons like candy

Yeah, as much as I complain about some of their marketing practises, I do think the game overall is quite solid. And I have been able to pick up some of the DLC on various sales. So maybe I will end up spending a little more than I would have otherwise, and not gotten to play the various civs as early as I could have, but I definitely think I've gotten my money's worth overall. I made a choice, essentially chose wrong. And in the end, it's not like it's costing me much - maybe a few bucks here or there, and having to play a 2nd or 3rd time as Kongo instead of a 1st time as Poland is not the end of the world to me.
 
I'm perfectly happy with this model. It's the same as what they used with Civ 5, which itself was basically the existing Civilization series model (premium game plus two expansion packs) with some reasonably priced DLC thrown in. Expansions make this game much better and I'm way happier that Firaxis is selling us on huge mechanical improvements and content stimulus to the game than what Paradox does and selling us extra unit skins and other inconsequential stuff that adds up over time. Compare to the manipulative skinnerbox stuff going on in the mobile market or the games as a service garbage that is so rampant today with EA, Ubisoft and the like; and a premium single player game with some consequential DLC and expansions is really one of my preferred ways of buying video games.
 
I updated/edited my initial post because I felt I wasn´t very clear in what I was trying to communicate.
The main point I was trying to make is how one sided the reviews of the Civ6 DLC´s are on Steam, mostly concerning prices, and I believe it affects the company negatively which is such a shame since the DLC´s in themselves seems really fun to play.

I also think it can be fixed easily by lowering DLC prices, selling DLC bundles or let vanilla buyers have an option to upgrade to Deluxe Edition.
Whither others agree with that or not is of course debatable but the Civ6-DLC Steam reviews, most of which are "mostly negative", are not.

I guess I could have been more specific from the start.
Sorry for any inconvenience.
 
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I'll be honest, it seems that the quality of the product these days is inverse to the amount of DLC it has. The gaming market hasn't quite resolved the new business model's quirks, even after this many years of the concept of DLC existing. The only thing that has comparable quality to the original model of core game + expansions is the way Paradox games rolls out its DLC.

Even then, the amount of content you get per Paradox game DLC is still akin to that of a expansion, except its rolled out in the same game. Which means buying a Paradox game long in development at peak price amounts to £80 - £100, more even in some cases; thus there's a high entry cost for new players. Compare that to the days where a core game + expansion was something like £30 at release and £20 for its expansion.

What that means for developers I don't know. We can't purely argue greed being the main motivator here because the industry, its publishers and its developers have to create sustainable income for their employment, plus funding further development. However, when big expansions are released they do seem very poor in quality. Even BTS and Warlords for 4 were considerable improvements on its core game. Then I look at the features for CIv 6's expansion and it's extremely underwhelming. Twice the price of a Paradox DLC or an old game on GOG with better strategic implementation.

It's almost like its pitched as a complete product but is unfinished in its implimentation.
 
The thing is, that doesn't seem to be solid reasoning to me. It is absolutely a tricky line to walk between consumer advocacy and understanding of development and business, and I believe your good intentions here. My disagreement is simply with the reasoning.

Which reasoning are you referring to? Please clarify. If I seem anti-industry, I'm not. Gaming is one of my few hobbies, trying to add more to that list. I have noticed a trend now though where I buy games that are to some degree incomplete (in my opinion) on release and later see them go on sale with everything fixed, and that's starting to get me to wait out many game releases. I understand the need for profit, but I wanted to express my opinion regarding upgrade paths. I have a good understanding of the business involved.

Games are always going to be cheaper later down the line. All products become cheaper later down the line. What's the cut-off point here? Should games be reduced in price less often? Because offering "early adopters" more is a bit of a tricky strategy, because of the criticisms you yourself raised of the state of the game on release.

People who buy games on release aren't going to get a "better deal" unless a product comes out with more development time behind it. However, this doesn't mean that the game is therefore being released with a deficit of time applied to it. Bugs will crop up invariably in games. It doesn't matter how simple they are perceived to be, they happen. It doesn't matter how easy they are to arguably fix. They still happen. More time doesn't necessarily always fix this, because for every one bug you see, there are probably a bunch of others you don't. I mean this is a truism, you're a computer scientist, I'm kinda wasting our time stating this.

This is an interesting conversation. Yup, all products become cheaper down the line, but the thing is - most software has to be feature complete on release (lets see MS try to release Windows with, lets say, wireless printing being non-functional). If I buy an iPhone, a bag, or a hard drive - that's it, it won't get better unless software updates come out to improve the experience a bit in the iPhone's case. Otherwise that's it, what you see is what you get. It will be a complete product, and if it's not, the company will be in trouble. The decision is relatively simple - buy early and enjoy it early, or buy late to save money. There usually aren't any hidden factors. Finished products for a set price, take it or leave it.

Games in particular though in my opinion have different factors in today's digital world. In my opinion, there very much is such a thing as a time deficit or resource deficit when it comes to games. I would argue that there should be a completion standard to which a game is held before release - not meeting that standard would mean either a deficit of time or resources, and would mean the game was not released in a finished state.

It's the difference between releasing a single-player FPS where the enemies run around like chickens, or make even a half-hearted attempt to stay behind cover and fight back. Or where the enemies are half-rendered, etc. Would it be acceptable to release a game in that state, and then patch it up a few months later? I know most of us would say no. Both consumers and the developers are aware of this implied completion standard. I'm not expecting an FPS to have an army of Neo's, but from art to graphics to AI, there are things we can all reasonably expect of a released game. I'm not talking about bugs where when you do X then Y you end up with Z instead of A, like you said bugs are part of the software development process due to our human nature. I'm talking about all major aspects of gameplay. If I buy an RTS, I expect that AI to know how to build all the units and at least toss them at me, even if it isn't a genius at doing so. I'd frequently encounter AI units on the move in Age of Empires II and I learned to pick them off while they were on their way - but they were trying. And if they got to their destination, they'd cause trouble.

Firaxis is a trustworthy and good developer, and Civ 6 was released in a great state. I'm speaking in general terms though. Whether they reached the completion standard with Civ 6 depends on the player and their approach to the game. In my opinion they came close, but the AI behavior meant that more resources were needed to ensure that the AI could succeed at capturing cities, which I would say is important in a game like civ. I still have full trust in Firaxis to continue to buy on-release and support them and the series. But it's clear to me at least that the AI team needs more investment to be able to live up to the promise of a complete civ game. If no updates took place after the release, and we had an AI that wouldn't capture cities (except very rarely), wouldn't build a navy or air units... would that be considered complete? If the expectation is that those things will be fixed after release, then doesn't that mean that early buyers won't experience the full game when the buy the game, and that they're in fact signing up for a long-term investment (as civ always is).

Given the trend of complaints about AI in 4x games, it seems to me that there just isn't enough room in the industry for resources/time to be invested in AI. It's probably something to do with the investment in marketing, art, etc. This is starting to become sort of a cliche with this genre. With the recent release of the spring patch, the AI keeps on getting better. It is a tough balancing act, I agree - but to me the resource/time balance is way off when a key game function is missing some important aspects. I greatly enjoy air combat in civ because it makes me feel like it's something new in the late game. It's not enjoyable at all to make air units and see that the AI doesn't seem to understand what they are. That tells me that the balance needs to be adjusted.

Something as simple as an upgrade path I think is a great incentive for early buyers to go through with a purchase on release. If that's not suitable for a company for whatever reason, that's their choice. At the end of the day the buyers will adapt. From my personal perspective, Firaxis did a great job for us deluxe buyers. Had I been a standard buyer, my opinion might've been different. I'd still think highly of Firaxis, but I'm not sure I'd buy the DLC, I would probably have waited until they were on sale. Maybe next time I'd consider buying deluxe up front or waiting for a sale...
 
I like the DLC model just fine. Each DLC is well worth it and the company can keep developing because of DLC.

One thing though, in multiplayer, there has been reported issues when some players dont have all DLC.
 
If @ChocolateShake is saying people didn't buy the deluxe because it only had four dlcs, but they would've bought if they knew it'd be six, maybe I can kinda see a little bitty frustration?

From everything we know though, that wasn't Firaxis's initial plan to include six. Four was advertised, and the extra two was a change where they went over and above to make some pre-ordering customers feel good about being shafted by exchange rates outside of, well...anyone's control! And I think it was a mistake, because it in turn has lead to an even more entitled attitude appearing. :rolleyes:
 
On the note of the actual DLC model, I have no problems with it. I'm glad it's not like others where there are so many DLC that it's hard to feel like you'll ever have all the added content without investing a ton into the game.

I sympathize with the early buyers of the standard who wanted an upgrade path. I think the DLC isn't going on sale to recoup the investment from on-sale buyers who jumped in late, where the profit margins are narrower. I don't think there will be a path introduced, especially after the inclusion in the humble bundle.
 
Sid Meier's Civilization VI - Digital Deluxe: 39,99€
"Upgrade" Sid Meier's Civilization VI to Digital Deluxe: 37,94€ (=all DLCs without R&F)
 
It’s because of piracy! It’s because of the internet! Blame the internet!
Back in the day! We went to a shop, bought a Super Nintendo game, and played it repeadedly! For 365 days straight! Over and over again! Hear, hear! We also had this 1 Gaming magazine (you know, printed version) in which we would look to games, repeadedly, for 365 days!

Anyway, I do think most DLC’s are too expensive. And I prefer a physical copy, and I bloody well hate Steam. But it is what it is. Game developers and publishers are adapting I guess...
 
It's high time people stop being so obnoxious about game pricing. All entertainment is, or should be valued pretty much equally.

A movie night out, for a single person is roughly 15€ where I live (tickets, popcorn, travel), plus any cost/effectiveness in time I have to actually get there. That's for 2-3 hours of entertainment that will be underwhelming in 75% of cases. Lets say this is 5€ entertainment per hour.

From games you can get 100+ hours of entertainment easy. Even at whopping 140€ for a full Civ6 package (which is obnoxious only beacuse I had to pay up front), that drops to 1.4€ per hour of entertaniment, and just keeps dropping from there. This is, provided that you use your computer for things other than work, of course. Because if you have to cash out 2000€ for a gaming PC, suddnely the cost of a movie night or a HBO/Netflix/Prime sub doesn't look so expensive.

Historically, prices of computer games were low, but price of services is on a serious rise in the last decade (I classify games as entertainment services in my head).
 
It's high time people stop being so obnoxious about game pricing. All entertainment is, or should be valued pretty much equally.

Historically, prices of computer games were low, but price of services is on a serious rise in the last decade (I classify games as entertainment services in my head).

If I trusted companies to not pocket the additional money rather than invest it in their employees and products, I'd advocate for actually increasing game prices because they're ridiculously low for their entertainment value potential and lead to development cycles that are far too short for what they entail (adversely affecting both products and their devs).
 
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If I trusted companies to not pocket the additional money rather than invest it in their employees and products, I'd advocate for actually increasing game prices because they're ridiculously low and lead to development cycles that are far too short for what they entail.

Unfortunately, we live in a world where it's somehow legal to have the vast majority of global wealth distributed by roulette, rather than human ingenuity and hard work. Say hello to modern finance which will hopefully die in a horrible, agonizing death it cannot resurrect from.
At least street criminals have the common decency to invest in buying a gun to point at you.
 
It’s because of piracy! It’s because of the internet! Blame the internet!
Back in the day! We went to a shop, bought a Super Nintendo game, and played it repeadedly! For 365 days straight! Over and over again! Hear, hear! We also had this 1 Gaming magazine (you know, printed version) in which we would look to games, repeadedly, for 365 days!

Anyway, I do think most DLC’s are too expensive. And I prefer a physical copy, and I bloody well hate Steam. But it is what it is. Game developers and publishers are adapting I guess...
Agreed.

Remember the time when we could go to Blockbuster to rent games?
 
Oh boy. Before we had our first NES, which we found at a flea market for about €2 or something (we had a different local currency back then), we would rent a Megadrive system with Sonic or Out run or that way cool - motorcycle race with iron chains to hit each other with - game. I remember playing Virtua Fighter somewhere with my jaws dropped to the floor. It’s in 3D!
SNES games back then were quite expensive, especially for a 10y old. If I remember correctly, in ‘92’ish we paid about €60 for Super Street Fighter II Turbo. I remember because we were not allowed to buy fighting games. :p “Those video games are too violent, son!”
 
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