Do people actually like Eurekas/Inspirations?

[acluewithout]

I love the system. Just love it. I agree maybe a few Eurekas could be tweak - I'd rather have Eurekas to build something rather than kill with something, and a few of those early "build a quarry" are a bit easy and I think could maybe be "build two quarries". But, yup, Eureka and Inspirations are a huge success - fun, strategic, and force you to use the map.

But, with all the Eurekas and Inspirations quests, Era score quests, City State quests and Agenda quests, we may have reached "peak quest".

If FXS were minded to clean up quests generally, I'd prefer losing City State quests - the "quest mechanic" is better spent on Eurekas, Inspirations and Era. You should maybe just get City State envoys through more defined criteria, eg x trade routes, liberating them... stuff like that.

 

[KayAU]

There may indeed be too many quests in the game now, especially with regards to quests which require you to build/buy X military unit or building which you had no real need for beyond getting the envoy or research boost. With regards to city state quests in general, I think they made a bit more sense in Civ 5, where the quests were about doing things which would benefit the city state, like clearing a nearby encampment, connecting them to your road network, or getting hold of resources they desired.

So which "quests" are there in the game right now? These are the ones I remember at the moment:

• Eurekas/Inspirations
• City state quests
• Emergencies
• Historic moments/Era points

Of these, I like eurekas and inspirations the most (although I would have liked some changes), followed by historic moments. Emergencies seem to happen far too rarely to be much of a feature. City state quests are my least favorite, and I wouldn't mind to see them generalized as the above poster suggested.

I might also have been interested in more involved quest events, which could be triggered randomly based on your situation. As an example, imagine a city is damaged by barbarians somehow (tiles pillaged, city center damaged, worker captured, something like that). There could then be a small chance that people got unhappy with the level of protection, and you could get a quest to improve security by getting level 2 walls in at least 60% of your cities. As a reward, you might get something like +1 amenities from walls.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I know everybody has different play styles. For me, eurekas/inspirations do not drive my strategy. Rather, I choose my strategy first based on what civ I am playing and what victory I am shooting for. I also change my strategy during the game based on the map and changing circumstances (like an unexpected war). If eurekas/inspirations align with my current strategy and are relatively easy to get, I will go for them but if the eurekas.inspirations don't align with my strategy or would require a significant detour, I ignore them. So for me, eurekas/inspirations are nice little boosts to my already planned strategy. They also make beelining much easier. If you get eurekas for techs in a row, you can shoot ahead in the tech tree very easily as the bonus has a cumulative effect. The eurekas you get from Great Scientists are icing on the cake. I love getting them and I definitely prioritize Great Scientists in my games but I don't really care which eurekas I get. They are like surprise gifts.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I like them.

Could certain ones be reworked? Sure.

I also liked the "blind" or directed research in Alpha Centauri. It felt more natural and realistic. However, I do not think it would fly with many Civ players who think you need to be able to control every single little thing.

 

[mitsho]

Anytime past classic, there is so much going on that I get eurekas by accident or not at all. Of course, I could optimize more, but that would just be micromanaging.

I'd like a bit of randomness in that each eureka can come in three levels (build 2-3-4 improvements, build a slinger - kill one unit with a slinger - kill two units with a slinger) and at the start it is randomly assigned which tech gets what level this game. This would simulate their mantra of "you should decide on your playstyle based on what the map gives you", the map here being a randomly generated base situation at the start of the game.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I also liked the "blind" or directed research in Alpha Centauri. It felt more natural and realistic. However, I do not think it would fly with many Civ players who think you need to be able to control every single little thing.

Agree. I too liked SMAC's blind research mechanic. I think it could fit in a civ game. Of course, it should be an option that players could disable like in SMAC if they want to be able to pick individual techs.

Another idea would be to randomize the tech tree a bit and hide all techs that are more than 1 tech ahead of what you have researched. That way players would not know what is ahead and would need to focus more on the next techs that they want. It always seemed odd and unrealistic to me that players could click on Rocketry in 1000 BC and the game would just select the tech path that leads to Rocketry. A bronze age leader would not know how to get to Rocketry. It makes the player feel more like a god who is charting the overall development of their civ rather than the earthly leader of their civ.

 

[Arent11]

Agree. I too liked SMAC's blind research mechanic. I think it could fit in a civ game. Of course, it should be an option that players could disable like in SMAC if they want to be able to pick individual techs.

Another idea would be to randomize the tech tree a bit and hide all techs that are more than 1 tech ahead of what you have researched. That way players would not know what is ahead and would need to focus more on the next techs that they want. It always seemed odd and unrealistic to me that players could click on Rocketry in 1000 BC and the game would just select the tech path that leads to Rocketry. A bronze age leader would not know how to get to Rocketry. It makes the player feel more like a god who is charting the overall development of their civ rather than the earthly leader of their civ.

Even when you disabled "blind research" in SMAC, your tech tree was still to a certain extent "randomized". You had a fixed tech tree, but they only allowed you to pick from a random subset of the techs you would usually be able to research. Which could be very frustrating (but fun), when you had aimed to discover air power, but then had to make do with chaos rovers, because the tech you actually wanted to research would not show up.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Even when you disabled "blind research" in SMAC, your tech tree was still to a certain extent "randomized". You had a fixed tech tree, but they only allowed you to pick from a random subset of the techs you would usually be able to research. Which could be very frustrating (but fun), when you had aimed to discover air power, but then had to make do with chaos rovers, because the tech you actually wanted to research would not show up.

That's how research works though. People are researching one thing but accidentally discover something else.

That's the option I usually chose. Today's min/maxers would absolutely rail against the idea though.

 

[Arent11]

Today's min/maxers would absolutely rail against the idea though.

I would absolutely love to see that

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Even when you disabled "blind research" in SMAC, your tech tree was still to a certain extent "randomized". You had a fixed tech tree, but they only allowed you to pick from a random subset of the techs you would usually be able to research. Which could be very frustrating (but fun), when you had aimed to discover air power, but then had to make do with chaos rovers, because the tech you actually wanted to research would not show up.

Yeah, SMAC had a great research system.

 

[Infixo]

I am the author of Real Eurekas, the mod that adds new eurekas/inspirations and randomizes them when the game is started. Always interested in a discussion about them
My position on the topic - great idea, badly implemented. It's fresh for a couple of games, after that it's just another min/max mechanism which can be and is exploited. My guess is that Firaxis implemented it for people who don't have hundreds of hours in the game and will never have. And suppose it's ok from their perspective, because those people make up a majority of buyers.
Saying that eurekas increase replayability is the same as saying that tech tree increases replayability. It is there, it is known, connections and paths are already defined, etc. What's more to add?
Eurekas by definition should be unexpected. They actually cannot be something one can plan for. Ofc this approach is not entirely possible to have in a game, which is a simple computer program, so some kind of compromise is required. The mod allows to hide future eurekas, so they are revealed along with the progress of the game. Plus each tech has a few possible eurekas that are chosen at random.
What remains to be done is actually define those eurekas. Define in a way that is meaningful and achieveable through normal gameplay. This is the biggest challenge and difficulty. It is easy to take one or two techs and invent 3-4 eurekas. But there are 117 so hundreds of them are needed, each one exclusive and tailored for a specific tech.

 

[UWHabs]

Agree. I too liked SMAC's blind research mechanic. I think it could fit in a civ game. Of course, it should be an option that players could disable like in SMAC if they want to be able to pick individual techs.

Another idea would be to randomize the tech tree a bit and hide all techs that are more than 1 tech ahead of what you have researched. That way players would not know what is ahead and would need to focus more on the next techs that they want. It always seemed odd and unrealistic to me that players could click on Rocketry in 1000 BC and the game would just select the tech path that leads to Rocketry. A bronze age leader would not know how to get to Rocketry. It makes the player feel more like a god who is charting the overall development of their civ rather than the earthly leader of their civ.

To do this properly, though, I think you'd need a fatter tech tree. It worked great in Alpha Centauri since the tree there was not nearly as much of a linear tree, and you could branch far along the edges to research things. The civ tree, having to somewhat follow history, is a much more linear system. And that goes doubly for the civics tree, which is basically a straight line with a couple branches. I'd love to see something like that in, but I'm not sure it really would make a ton of sense for Civ, having to somewhat follow history.

Hiding further ahead techs would certainly be interesting, although you would need to redesign the tree to either have multiple paths through, or shift what appears when on the tree. Otherwise you'd just have people memorize the tree. But if you bulked out the tree a little bit, then I would likely design it in a system where basically at each level, each tech would have 1 previous tech that was required, and then have potentially 2-3 other choices that were rotated through each game. Like, for example, Steam Power would have an "always" requisite of Industrialization, so you'd know that would always be a prereq for it. But then it would also be Square Rigging OR Scientific Theory, where each game it would choose one or the other to be a requisite for it, and you basically wouldn't find out until after having researched Industrialization, for example. Although if you do that, you might end up with some very weird tech trees in some games unless if you're careful, where maybe you have a tech like Printing become a leaf tech...

 

[ChocolateShake]

@Eagle_Pursuit had shared a video where Ed Beach talked about how they wanted to avoid any automatic decisions in civ, so you'd always have to make a meaningful decision about what to do next. I think eurekas and inspirations conflict with this goal, since it's almost always the best move to go for them when they're reasonably achievable. It's one of the few ways you can out-tech the AI if you're not a min-maxer normally.

As was mentioned earlier, there have to be alternate ways to boost, or this mechanic has to be removed completely. I was happy that Rise and Fall added more stuff initially, but the eras system reinforces eurekas/inspirations in some cases, so that's an issue for me.

I think this should have been an organic process, as it is right now I typically research the techs that I have no realistic hope of getting boosted to give me more time to get boosts for techs and civics, and I'm not a min-maxer player usually. That's not fun to me.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

@Eagle_Pursuit had shared a video where Ed Beach talked about how they wanted to avoid any automatic decisions in civ, so you'd always have to make a meaningful decision about what to do next. I think eurekas and inspirations conflict with this goal, since it's almost always the best move to go for them when they're reasonably achievable. It's one of the few ways you can out-tech the AI if you're not a min-maxer normally.

As was mentioned earlier, there have to be alternate ways to boost, or this mechanic has to be removed completely. I was happy that Rise and Fall added more stuff initially, but the eras system reinforces eurekas/inspirations in some cases, so that's an issue for me.

I think this should have been an organic process, as it is right now I typically research the techs that I have no realistic hope of getting boosted to give me more time to get boosts for techs and civics, and I'm not a min-maxer player usually. That's not fun to me.

I disagree here. Even though not perfect, it's still more interesting to have them the way they are than to have not have them at all. It might be best to go for the eurekas but otherwise you'd just be replacing that with one "best" teching order.

 

[DeutschDachs]

I barely even notice them. I wouldn't care one way or the other if they were kept or missing in Civ VII.

I have acted specifically to fulfill eurekas so they've fulfilled their purpose. Did I feel it added to immersion or fun or replayability? Eh...

 

[ChocolateShake]

I disagree here. Even though not perfect, it's still more interesting to have them the way they are than to have not have them at all. It might be best to go for the eurekas but otherwise you'd just be replacing that with one "best" teching order.

I suppose it does help diversify the tech choices, which is something that will hopefully be addressed in the next iteration too. I think tech should be a lot more organic in civ, the concept of eurekas seems meant to encourage that, but instead turned into one of those automatic decisions where you feel like you "should" go for one if it's reasonably achievable. I play for fun and so I do my best to ignore them, but sometimes it's tough when considering the benefits they bring.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I suppose it does help diversify the tech choices, which is something that will hopefully be addressed in the next iteration too. I think tech should be a lot more organic in civ, the concept of eurekas seems meant to encourage that, but instead turned into one of those automatic decisions where you feel like you "should" go for one if it's reasonably achievable. I play for fun and so I do my best to ignore them, but sometimes it's tough when considering the benefits they bring.

Eurekas/inspirations essentially have the effect of randomizing the cost of techs/civics each game. Changing the costs of techs and civics based on player's actions is a really good concept. Although some of the eurekas happen almost automatically in every game so it is like the tech is always discounted. For example, considering that there are barbarians in every game that will try to attack you at least a little in the early game, killing 3 barbarians, the eureka for bronze working, is almost a given in every game. So it might be better if some eurekas were something you really had to choose to do rather than something that tends to happen no matter what.

 

[UWHabs]

Eurekas/inspirations essentially have the effect of randomizing the cost of techs/civics each game. Changing the costs of techs and civics based on player's actions is a really good concept. Although some of the eurekas happen almost automatically in every game so it is like the tech is always discounted. For example, considering that there are barbarians in every game that will try to attack you at least a little in the early game, killing 3 barbarians, the eureka for bronze working, is almost a given in every game. So it might be better if some eurekas were something you really had to choose to do rather than something that tends to happen no matter what.

Even with that one, I have had cases where I haven't had barb hordes (maybe a city-state cleared out the close camp), and then it becomes an interesting decision whether I slow-tech it, or hunt for that last kill to get the eureka. And I do think the early eurekas it does make sense to have them "easier" than others. Even asking you to mine a resource or build a quarry, while obviously things you want to do, most games there's basically no choices to make whether I can actually complete the task or not, it's simply dependent on my local area whether I have a valid resource.

But after the ancient era techs, then I'd agree that the rest should need a conscious effort and virtually none should be "gimmes".

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

I like them though they could be improved. I'm not sure the AI really prioritizes them and getting the same eureka every game gets a little boring after you have enough playthroughs under your belt. I would prefer if they weren't available for every tech and civic but perhaps only for random subset of them. In concept I think they make sense. The freebies like writing should probably be tweaked to be more difficult - as it stands I think many of them are just a little too easy to get.

 

[leandrombraz]

.
Saying that eurekas increase replayability is the same as saying that tech tree increases replayability. It is there, it is known, connections and paths are already defined, etc. What's more to add?
Eurekas by definition should be unexpected. They actually cannot be something one can plan for. Ofc this approach is not entirely possible to have in a game, which is a simple computer program, so some kind of compromise is required. The mod allows to hide future eurekas, so they are revealed along with the progress of the game. Plus each tech has a few possible eurekas that are chosen at random.
What remains to be done is actually define those eurekas. Define in a way that is meaningful and achieveable through normal gameplay. This is the biggest challenge and difficulty. It is easy to take one or two techs and invent 3-4 eurekas. But there are 117 so hundreds of them are needed, each one exclusive and tailored for a specific tech.

What add replayability is the map, Eureka/Inspiration is one of the many Civ VI mechanics that try to play to that strength. It doesn't need to be unexpected, the map is supposed to be that. Eureka/Inspiration is there as a tool for the player to play to the strength of the hand he is handled. The system can be static, the map is meant to encourage experimentation. The system doesn't always succeed in being that but that is what it was supposed to be. You got a coastal start? Researching the "water" tech path will be easier and so on..