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Do people actually like Eurekas/Inspirations?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by noto2, May 28, 2018.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Being able to (or having to) play the map requires a fixed tech tree and fixed eureka / inspiration. They’re fixed, so you always know what your strategic options are. You can then pick the best strategy to best play the (random) map you have.

    That’s precisely why I don’t like any suggestions to have changing or random eurekas or random tech. It can’t work without reducing the importance of the map.
     
    stealth_nsk and King Rad like this.
  2. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    That's an interesting idea that could help with the pacing.

    By randomising; does it chose from the same few for each tech/civic so they are relevant to that tech/civic? Or does it take all the boosts and add them to random techs and civics?
     
  3. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    I've created for each tech/civic additional boosts, 2-4 new ones for each. It chooses from those relevant to a specific tech.
     
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  4. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Awesome. I'll check it out :)
     
  5. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Well, going by that logic, why does population grow by filling up a food bucket? Why do we complete soldiers by working a random mine to fill up the hammer bucket? It's a game, not a science simulator. And even if we were trying to build a science simulator, this would be a terrible, awful one, imo.
     
  6. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Yeah you've really hit the nail on the head. Look at Creative Assembly and their Total War series. The latest games are very different in every way from their earliest games, but that change happened incrementally over time. If you take one game in the series and compare it to the next, they are usually very, very similar with only slight adjustments. On the one hand, this can lead to a bit of player fatigue. If you just spent 3 months playing Empire Total War you'll probably want a break before playing Napoleon, because they are so similar. On the other hand, what this has lead to is a strong upward trajectory in quality of player experience over time.

    Then you have civilization. Each title is drastically and fundamentally different from the previous one, throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think this is why each game receives mixed reviews when it first comes out, and only redeems itself after a lot of work and two expansions. I didn't get into Civ3 until Conquests was out. I also didn't bother with Civ4 until right around the time BTS came out. That's probably why I loved both games so much. I've always had old computers and never have I been able to play new games. Until recently. I finished school, got a job, earn decent money, and now actually have a powerful gaming rig so I can play anything. That's new to me. I played Civ 6 the day after it was released and was extremely disappointed. Who knows, maybe if I had just waited a couple of years and played it after all the DLC and expansions were out I would have had a very different experience.

    As for the future of Civ, I think their design philosophy has some strengths. They take bigger risks and this allows them to introduce big game-changing elements quickly (think culture in Civ 3, great people in Civ 4, city-states in Civ 5), but it also means they stumble on other design choices. The AI still can't handle tactical 1 UPT combat even though Civ 5 was released ages ago. This is unacceptable. I'm not sure how to fix this. I suppose what I would most wish for is that they would diverge the Civ title going forward. I think they should take Civ as it is now and keep tinkering with it as CA does with the TW series. Civ 7 should just be a more polished and tinkered version of the best of Civ 4-6, and they should follow that path. Then, when they have new totally ground-breaking ideas for a TBS game they should just make a new game entirely.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Nope, min/maxers work with whatever they are given to get the best out of it.
    If everything was random then sure they would get cross but goody huts add randomness into it and the min/maxers hunt them down like dogs because the more of them you get the less random they are.
    Take scientists, another random element they will hold back on them until there is only a few hard eurekas left in an era and then use them.
    Min / Maxers are used to random elements and part of what they enjoy is the skill in reducing the randomness.
     
  8. Flaxton

    Flaxton Warlord

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    I like them. Random eureka's would be a fun and welcome addition. Plus remove that 'build 2 forts' demand! If you play as a seafaring race you definitely feel the difference in the advancement.

    Anybody find it funny that mining uranium gets you no eureka?
     
  9. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I really dislike random eurekas, for the reasons already stated. They would royally screw up the game and the importance of the map.

    But I think from the Industrial onwards you could maybe give techs maybe two possible eurekas and then make both quite hard. That would not require borking the current system and might open the late game up a little.
     
  10. Hammurabbit

    Hammurabbit Warlord

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    I think current Eureka system is fairly successful. You get rewarded if you plan a little ahead. It's fun.
    I do wish that they were a bit more dynamic somehow i.e. not the same in all games. I tend to get the same Eurekas in each game, in more or less the same order.
    Not sure how though.
     
  11. masda_gib

    masda_gib Warlord

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    Okay:

    First, those two examples you have given were chosen poorly because they HAVE other stuff attached to them. Population doesn't only grow via food. Without housing or new cities you have a hard cap. And you can have as much hammers as you want, without iron you won't build swordsmen.
    So even those two simple points have more complexitivity behind tham than just filling up ONE resource.

    Second, even if they were that simple. The whole science stuff is a huge part of Civ and because of that, a bit new stuff doesn't hurt. Its not like the science part of Civ was too complex so far.

    Eurekas don't make a it 'science simulator' they just make it less one dimensional. They may not be the best solution but I think they are a step in the right direction. Future installments may redo them into something better.
     
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  12. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I could envision a random/blind (but directed) tech advancement that is tied to the map. Say you have a choice to focus your research on one of several areas: Defense, Trade/Diplomacy, Exploration, Growth and Infrastructure, Government/religion. (Those aren't the best categories but you get the idea). The tech you get would be nudged along by the focus you choose, but also by what is nearby and what you are doing in-game/your map. There would be crossover between how different focus get to different techs.

    Etc.
     
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  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    But quite logical, even your rig would not be able to handle the compute power required... however quantum computers may change all of that. I just do not understand how doomstack fans blame the developer, its not their fault computers are not powerful enough... blame the designers for choosing 1 UPT or more importantly blame the public (like me) for preferring them. By saying unacceptable my eyes dash to your name and I register it in my brain as another name to remember to forget. The lack of logic used is what is unacceptable or at least the lack of differentiating between poor programming of an archer leaving a city as opposed to optimal moves of 27 different units in a single turn over varying terrain in various situations with lack of information (or memory)
    That's because the first person to dig it up tried to taste it then carried a massive lump home in their protective leather satchel.
    indeed, most of my decent population growth happens via chopping now, especially in rebelling cities which will not grow but need to grow to stop the rebellion. Chopping a cow in half not only ignores rebelling vegans but also ignores food caps. When I go into jungle I do not bother about fresh water much, I'm more interested in is it worth my builders time to chop it into a 10 pop city.

    As an aside, to no-one in particular... one suspect one is deemed a min maxer but am in fact more of a messer. I played a game last night where the aim was to get 15 20 pop cities.... a very unhappy civ was I
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  14. klail

    klail Chieftain

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    I love the eureka/inspiration system, they are like more mini-quests built into the game. But I too wish it was randomized -- i like the idea if each eureka had 2-3 different potential prerequisites and that it was random each game. That way they could still make sense and the player could still learn the system but it wouldn't be exactly the same each game.
     
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  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The biro was an accident, the computer was not.
    Weirdly I still work out sums with a biro
    just how many earth shattering discoveries were an accident? (discounting the biro)
     
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  16. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    You are taking the names too literally, Boris.
    Think domestication and taming of animals useful for transporting
    material and people.

    Mining requires carpenters, metal workers, transport specialists and many, many
    other auxiliary professions and trades. Therefore, there would have been many
    different types of apprentices in "mining".
     
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  17. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Penicillin
     
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  18. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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    There are actually very few boosts that are related to the map. Especially in the early game, when it really matters.
     
  19. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    The "Biro" might have been an accidental idea, but there are enormous
    difficulties in producing high-quality fine point equivalents in industrial
    quantities. Chinese engineers have just realised how hard it is when they
    decided to produce domestic versions themselves (instead of importing hundreds
    of millions of $ worth). When first invented, there weren't many countries that
    had the industrial and engineering smarts to produce the super-accurate sphere
    and small brass cone to make a writing implement that didn't stick or judder
    slightly. I'd say there were a few Euro countries and the US that had the
    capability. (Japan wasn't quite up to it at that stage.)
     
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  20. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Accidental, but then lots of hard scientific work to make
    it safe for humans.

    Vulcanised rubber was another notable accidental discovery.

    I discovered, as a poor student, that mixing baked beans, a tin of
    oily sardines and paprika is guaranteed to clear any lower intestinal
    blockages.
     
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