Do people actually like Eurekas/Inspirations?

[acluewithout]

Being able to (or having to) play the map requires a fixed tech tree and fixed eureka / inspiration. They’re fixed, so you always know what your strategic options are. You can then pick the best strategy to best play the (random) map you have.

That’s precisely why I don’t like any suggestions to have changing or random eurekas or random tech. It can’t work without reducing the importance of the map.

 

[nzcamel]

Perhaps there should be some hard limit to how many eurekas or inspirations you can get for each era. This will mean you will not be compelled to try and hit every single one, as that somewhat undermines the idea of creating variety between playthroughs, and customizing your civilization based on situation. Of course, the limit may be modified by abilities or wonders.

That's an interesting idea that could help with the pacing.

I am the author of Real Eurekas, the mod that adds new eurekas/inspirations and randomizes them when the game is started. Always interested in a discussion about them
My position on the topic - great idea, badly implemented. It's fresh for a couple of games, after that it's just another min/max mechanism which can be and is exploited. My guess is that Firaxis implemented it for people who don't have hundreds of hours in the game and will never have. And suppose it's ok from their perspective, because those people make up a majority of buyers.
Saying that eurekas increase replayability is the same as saying that tech tree increases replayability. It is there, it is known, connections and paths are already defined, etc. What's more to add?
Eurekas by definition should be unexpected. They actually cannot be something one can plan for. Ofc this approach is not entirely possible to have in a game, which is a simple computer program, so some kind of compromise is required. The mod allows to hide future eurekas, so they are revealed along with the progress of the game. Plus each tech has a few possible eurekas that are chosen at random.
What remains to be done is actually define those eurekas. Define in a way that is meaningful and achieveable through normal gameplay. This is the biggest challenge and difficulty. It is easy to take one or two techs and invent 3-4 eurekas. But there are 117 so hundreds of them are needed, each one exclusive and tailored for a specific tech.

By randomising; does it chose from the same few for each tech/civic so they are relevant to that tech/civic? Or does it take all the boosts and add them to random techs and civics?

 

[Infixo]

By randomising; does it chose from the same few for each tech/civic so they are relevant to that tech/civic? Or does it take all the boosts and add them to random techs and civics?

I've created for each tech/civic additional boosts, 2-4 new ones for each. It chooses from those relevant to a specific tech.

 

[nzcamel]

I've created for each tech/civic additional boosts, 2-4 new ones for each. It chooses from those relevant to a specific tech.

Awesome. I'll check it out

 

[noto2]

I get that some people might not like them. But, Eurekas as ed game design? Really?
Firaxis makes sciense more than just piling up numbers and thats bad game design? Oo

I

Well, going by that logic, why does population grow by filling up a food bucket? Why do we complete soldiers by working a random mine to fill up the hammer bucket? It's a game, not a science simulator. And even if we were trying to build a science simulator, this would be a terrible, awful one, imo.

 

[noto2]

The general rule of thumb for all design is that Devs shouldn't try to fix something that isn't broken; i.e don't reinvent the wheel. They could simply have kept polishing on existing features, maybe making new features compatible with existing ones and eventually everything would have gotten better and better. Unfortunately this fallacious need to make everything new so it doesn't get boring prevents proper polishing from taking place by remaking everything and that is why every product made this way will never reach its full potential. Many games out there who don't reinvent the wheel do so well after decades of polishing I don't see why Firaxis can't do the same thing.

Yeah you've really hit the nail on the head. Look at Creative Assembly and their Total War series. The latest games are very different in every way from their earliest games, but that change happened incrementally over time. If you take one game in the series and compare it to the next, they are usually very, very similar with only slight adjustments. On the one hand, this can lead to a bit of player fatigue. If you just spent 3 months playing Empire Total War you'll probably want a break before playing Napoleon, because they are so similar. On the other hand, what this has lead to is a strong upward trajectory in quality of player experience over time.

Then you have civilization. Each title is drastically and fundamentally different from the previous one, throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think this is why each game receives mixed reviews when it first comes out, and only redeems itself after a lot of work and two expansions. I didn't get into Civ3 until Conquests was out. I also didn't bother with Civ4 until right around the time BTS came out. That's probably why I loved both games so much. I've always had old computers and never have I been able to play new games. Until recently. I finished school, got a job, earn decent money, and now actually have a powerful gaming rig so I can play anything. That's new to me. I played Civ 6 the day after it was released and was extremely disappointed. Who knows, maybe if I had just waited a couple of years and played it after all the DLC and expansions were out I would have had a very different experience.

As for the future of Civ, I think their design philosophy has some strengths. They take bigger risks and this allows them to introduce big game-changing elements quickly (think culture in Civ 3, great people in Civ 4, city-states in Civ 5), but it also means they stumble on other design choices. The AI still can't handle tactical 1 UPT combat even though Civ 5 was released ages ago. This is unacceptable. I'm not sure how to fix this. I suppose what I would most wish for is that they would diverge the Civ title going forward. I think they should take Civ as it is now and keep tinkering with it as CA does with the TW series. Civ 7 should just be a more polished and tinkered version of the best of Civ 4-6, and they should follow that path. Then, when they have new totally ground-breaking ideas for a TBS game they should just make a new game entirely.

 

[Victoria]

Today's min/maxers would absolutely rail against the idea though.

Nope, min/maxers work with whatever they are given to get the best out of it.
If everything was random then sure they would get cross but goody huts add randomness into it and the min/maxers hunt them down like dogs because the more of them you get the less random they are.
Take scientists, another random element they will hold back on them until there is only a few hard eurekas left in an era and then use them.
Min / Maxers are used to random elements and part of what they enjoy is the skill in reducing the randomness.

 

[Flaxton]

I like them. Random eureka's would be a fun and welcome addition. Plus remove that 'build 2 forts' demand! If you play as a seafaring race you definitely feel the difference in the advancement.

Anybody find it funny that mining uranium gets you no eureka?

 

[acluewithout]

I really dislike random eurekas, for the reasons already stated. They would royally screw up the game and the importance of the map.

But I think from the Industrial onwards you could maybe give techs maybe two possible eurekas and then make both quite hard. That would not require borking the current system and might open the late game up a little.

 

[Hammurabbit]

I think current Eureka system is fairly successful. You get rewarded if you plan a little ahead. It's fun.
I do wish that they were a bit more dynamic somehow i.e. not the same in all games. I tend to get the same Eurekas in each game, in more or less the same order.
Not sure how though.

 

[masda_gib]

Well, going by that logic, why does population grow by filling up a food bucket? Why do we complete soldiers by working a random mine to fill up the hammer bucket? It's a game, not a science simulator. And even if we were trying to build a science simulator, this would be a terrible, awful one, imo.

Okay:

First, those two examples you have given were chosen poorly because they HAVE other stuff attached to them. Population doesn't only grow via food. Without housing or new cities you have a hard cap. And you can have as much hammers as you want, without iron you won't build swordsmen.
So even those two simple points have more complexitivity behind tham than just filling up ONE resource.

Second, even if they were that simple. The whole science stuff is a huge part of Civ and because of that, a bit new stuff doesn't hurt. Its not like the science part of Civ was too complex so far.

Eurekas don't make a it 'science simulator' they just make it less one dimensional. They may not be the best solution but I think they are a step in the right direction. Future installments may redo them into something better.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Being able to (or having to) play the map requires a fixed tech tree and fixed eureka / inspiration. They’re fixed, so you always know what your strategic options are. You can then pick the best strategy to best play the (random) map you have.

That’s precisely why I don’t like any suggestions to have changing or random eurekas or random tech. It can’t work without reducing the importance of the map.

I could envision a random/blind (but directed) tech advancement that is tied to the map. Say you have a choice to focus your research on one of several areas: Defense, Trade/Diplomacy, Exploration, Growth and Infrastructure, Government/religion. (Those aren't the best categories but you get the idea). The tech you get would be nudged along by the focus you choose, but also by what is nearby and what you are doing in-game/your map. There would be crossover between how different focus get to different techs.

A Breakthrough!

Mining

In our search for ways to work with other cultures, we have learned that our neighbors really like the shiny rocks we've been finding in a nearby hillside. Some industrious among us have found better ways to obtain those for a great profit.

A Breakthrough!

Cartography

After spending many ages on the seas, our sailors and fishermen have decided that getting lost sucks and found a better way

Etc.

 

[Victoria]

The AI still can't handle tactical 1 UPT combat even though Civ 5 was released ages ago. This is unacceptable.

But quite logical, even your rig would not be able to handle the compute power required... however quantum computers may change all of that. I just do not understand how doomstack fans blame the developer, its not their fault computers are not powerful enough... blame the designers for choosing 1 UPT or more importantly blame the public (like me) for preferring them. By saying unacceptable my eyes dash to your name and I register it in my brain as another name to remember to forget. The lack of logic used is what is unacceptable or at least the lack of differentiating between poor programming of an archer leaving a city as opposed to optimal moves of 27 different units in a single turn over varying terrain in various situations with lack of information (or memory)

Anybody find it funny that mining uranium gets you no eureka?

That's because the first person to dig it up tried to taste it then carried a massive lump home in their protective leather satchel.

Population doesn't only grow via food

indeed, most of my decent population growth happens via chopping now, especially in rebelling cities which will not grow but need to grow to stop the rebellion. Chopping a cow in half not only ignores rebelling vegans but also ignores food caps. When I go into jungle I do not bother about fresh water much, I'm more interested in is it worth my builders time to chop it into a 10 pop city.

As an aside, to no-one in particular... one suspect one is deemed a min maxer but am in fact more of a messer. I played a game last night where the aim was to get 15 20 pop cities.... a very unhappy civ was I

 

[klail]

I love the eureka/inspiration system, they are like more mini-quests built into the game. But I too wish it was randomized -- i like the idea if each eureka had 2-3 different potential prerequisites and that it was random each game. That way they could still make sense and the player could still learn the system but it wouldn't be exactly the same each game.

 

[Victoria]

The biro was an accident, the computer was not.
Weirdly I still work out sums with a biro
just how many earth shattering discoveries were an accident? (discounting the biro)

 

[Ferocitus]

*Building a Pasture speeds up Horseback Riding? - even if it's a pasture full of Sheep? Sounds like Woolly Thinking on the part of the game designers...

You are taking the names too literally, Boris.
Think domestication and taming of animals useful for transporting
material and people.

*Building 3 Mines speeds up Apprenticeship? - That's funny, mining was one craft/industry that didn't use apprentices at all: apprenticeship was associated with the Value-Added Crafts like metal-working, wood, leather and cloth fabrication, and special skills like painting, jewelry-making, Trade/Accounting, etc.

Mining requires carpenters, metal workers, transport specialists and many, many
other auxiliary professions and trades. Therefore, there would have been many
different types of apprentices in "mining".

 

[SammyKhalifa]

The biro was an accident, the computer was not.
Weirdly I still work out sums with a biro
just how many earth shattering discoveries were an accident? (discounting the biro)

Penicillin

 

[Infixo]

I really dislike random eurekas, for the reasons already stated. They would royally screw up the game and the importance of the map.

There are actually very few boosts that are related to the map. Especially in the early game, when it really matters.

 

[Ferocitus]

The biro was an accident, the computer was not.
Weirdly I still work out sums with a biro
just how many earth shattering discoveries were an accident? (discounting the biro)

The "Biro" might have been an accidental idea, but there are enormous
difficulties in producing high-quality fine point equivalents in industrial
quantities. Chinese engineers have just realised how hard it is when they
decided to produce domestic versions themselves (instead of importing hundreds
of millions of $ worth). When first invented, there weren't many countries that
had the industrial and engineering smarts to produce the super-accurate sphere
and small brass cone to make a writing implement that didn't stick or judder
slightly. I'd say there were a few Euro countries and the US that had the
capability. (Japan wasn't quite up to it at that stage.)

 

[Ferocitus]

Penicillin

Accidental, but then lots of hard scientific work to make
it safe for humans.

Vulcanised rubber was another notable accidental discovery.

I discovered, as a poor student, that mixing baked beans, a tin of
oily sardines and paprika is guaranteed to clear any lower intestinal
blockages.