Do racists in America need their own safe space?

[Synobun]

Well, you said the anthem "requires," so how does this "requirement" work in real life? I've been to a few sporting events in my time and I don't remember standing for the anthem. In fact I likely made a point of not standing. And nothing happened to me. So I can only conclude that in real life there is no such "requirement".

It works socially, not legally. Please don't nitpick a singular word. I obviously don't mean you're going to be hauled off to jail because you didn't stand for the anthem.

I want to say that your experience is the exception and not the rule but I haven't polled enough people or experienced enough places to make a confident claim in that regard. I've never been to an event or location where sitting down was explicitly alright. One of my childhood acts of rebellion was to sit instead of stand and then throw a zinger of "It's not illegal to sit!" to whoever called me out and that was as a Canadian where our nationalism is toned down significantly from the US's. I've watched hundreds of sports games on TV where you need to stand during the anthem and have gone to several myself. Any friend I've had that grew up in America needed to stand. I've never heard anyone, until you just now, say that the anthem (especially in America) was a laissez-faire activity where nobody cares about what you do during it.

There's also the glaring example of the NFL protests. You can make the argument that a lot of the people opposed are really just racists, but I'd think you find a lot more people who are genuinely upset that players are choosing to break a social requirement on national television. You're to stand, not kneel, not sit, not speak. This is indoctrinated into kids since they enter primary school. If that wasn't your experience, you are very fortunate.

 

[Lexicus]

I want to say that your experience is the exception and not the rule but I haven't polled enough people or experienced enough places to make a confident claim in that regard. I've never been to an event or location where sitting down was explicitly alright. One of my childhood acts of rebellion was to sit instead of stand and then throw a zinger of "It's not illegal to sit!" to whoever called me out and that was as a Canadian where our nationalism is toned down significantly from the US's. I've watched hundreds of sports games on TV where you need to stand during the anthem and have gone to several myself. Any friend I've had that grew up in America needed to stand. I've never heard anyone, until you just now, say that the anthem (especially in America) was a laissez-faire activity where nobody cares about what you do during it.

What does it mean when you say "need to stand" though? Like would a mob assemble and threaten you unless you stand? Like seriously, I just don't get what you mean by that. I don't care about people giving me dirty looks or whatever, if people 'need' me to stand for the anthem they're going to have to come physically make me.

There's also the glaring example of the NFL protests. You can make the argument that a lot of the people opposed are really just racists, but I'd think you find a lot more people who are genuinely upset that players are choosing to break a social requirement on national television. You're to stand, not kneel, not sit, not speak. This is indoctrinated into kids since they enter primary school. If that wasn't your experience, you are very fortunate.

It is illegal in the US to punish students for not standing during the national anthem or pledge of allegiance.

 

[Synobun]

What does it mean when you say "need to stand" though? Like would a mob assemble and threaten you unless you stand? Like seriously, I just don't get what you mean by that. I don't care about people giving me dirty looks or whatever, if people 'need' me to stand for the anthem they're going to have to come physically make me.

*shrug* You could say this about most social conventions. Just because you're edgy and like sticking it to the man doesn't make it any less of a social convention, and the fact that you have to specifically state your position as needing to be physically coerced means you're at least subconsciously aware of the social pressures in that regard.

If you resist the convention, you are negatively judged. Depending on your position in life this negative judgement can be used against you to great effect (e.g. you're a kid). You can make the choice to get dirty looks and to throw down the gauntlet to challenge others to a battle of physical feats if they want your compliance, but realize that this is only a 'thing' because of the 'need' and 'requirement'. If standing for the anthem was as meaningless as you claim, if nobody cared about it as you claim, you wouldn't need to draw that line in the sand.

It is illegal in the US to punish students for not standing during the national anthem or pledge of allegiance.

As someone who works in unions, you should know more than most that whether or not something is illegal is often entirely meaningless in contrast to what happens.

 

[Lexicus]

*shrug* You could say this about most social conventions. Just because you're edgy and like sticking it to the man doesn't make it any less of a social convention, and the fact that you have to specifically state your position as needing to be physically coerced means you're at least subconsciously aware of the social pressures in that regard.

I mean, the only reason I'm framing it this way is because of the stuff you're saying. You keep saying "you need to stand" and I'm just trying to get at what exactly you mean by that.

If you resist the convention, you are negatively judged. Depending on your position in life this negative judgement can be used against you to great effect (e.g. you're a kid). You can make the choice to get dirty looks and to throw down the gauntlet to challenge others to a battle of physical feats if they want your compliance, but realize that this is only a 'thing' because of the 'need' and 'requirement'. If standing for the anthem was as meaningless as you claim, if nobody cared about it as you claim, you wouldn't need to draw that line in the sand.

But this honestly doesn't match my experiences. Again, this stuff is not coming from my own life, it's coming from my attempt to understand what you're saying. In my life I've never felt the slightest compulsion to stand for the anthem though this may be because I've only ever attended a couple of sporting events.

As someone who works in unions, you should know more than most that whether or not something is illegal is often entirely meaningless in contrast to what happens.

True enough, but I honestly don't know what the state of this is in the US. I can easily imagine that lots of school districts in deep-red counties might punish students for failing to stand, but I can't imagine they'd really need to as most of the kids would want to stand, surely? My only experience with this is that my younger brother's fourth grade teacher tried to give him detention for not standing during the pledge and it didn't work, my mom went to the school and told them they couldn't do that, and they knuckled under because the Supreme Court has ruled that forcing students to stand is a violation of the 1st amendment. This was an extremely liberal district, mind, which is probably why I never felt any particular social pressure to stand. My brother just got unlucky with a crotchety and reactionary teacher.

Anyway tl;dr because students who are inclined not to stand likely are in mostly liberal districts where no one cares, and if punishment is actually done it is easy to find out that it is illegal and a school can easily be sued for allowing it, my guess is that it does not happen very often.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think Antarctica should be lily-white enough for them.

Too many gay penguins.

 

[Broken_Erika]

What about Mariana Trench?

 

[Ajidica]

What about Mariana Trench?

Too many transgender fish.*


*Don't some deep see fish change genders depending on available food and environment? Or am I mixing up my BBC documentaries?

 

[JollyRoger]

Or am I mixing up my BBC documentaries?

Trump gets easily confused on whether it was Melania or Ivanka that was last on BBC.

 

[Lexicus]

*Don't some deep see fish change genders depending on available food and environment? Or am I mixing up my BBC documentaries?

I'm pretty sure they do. There are a bunch of fish species that are hermaphroditic, including clown fish. Lots of hermaphrodite invertebrates down there too.

 

[Traitorfish]

Genetically-engineer dinosaurs, too, so that's privately-owned tropical islands off the table.

It's a tough world out there for the herrenvolk.

 

[Broken_Erika]

I'd say the moon but the last thing we need are Moon Nazi's to worry about. Not to mention there might be transgender Onion Men...

 

[Hygro]

While we need to phase out the racists, on some level I do believe they need a safe space.

 

[GenMarshall]

No one should have safe spaces.

Just get a thick skin and move on!

 

[Hygro]

I mean yeah, but sometimes people can get sensitive and need a moment to collect their thoughts, and sometimes as a group.

 

[Ajidica]

No one should have safe spaces.

Just get a thick skin and move on!

Seems a bit of a change from a couple years ago you were telling all of us to be nicer to you and demanding we offer "helpful" comments when every other post you made was screaming about how you were unemployed.