Do you reload?

[BlackJAC]

I've promised to drop this now

 

[Percy]

Playing a new map each time isn't the same as reloading.

no, of course, but both are "starting again without playing to get a better game going".

i agree with BlackJAC and Rohili, completely.

look Moonsinger, you keep saying the tool only does what the program allows you to do in the first place. but afaik, the program DOES allow you to reload, to NOT keep the random seeds, and so on and so forth. so the "program allows it" argument is moot already.

now, i'm not saying that people SHOULD NOT use your utility (couldn't get it to work but looked great) to get good maps when they try to score high, etc. but then, i'm not saying either that they should NOT reload when they unintentionally moved a worker, or overlooked a city revolting, etc. i mean, all that are problems of interface... you're talking about saving time with the mapfinder, i say great, but then don't you think i should be able to have a feature in the game popping up when i will have cities rebelling ? it's not a good thing to have the choice between using a third-party utility or spend hours per turn.

anyway, back to the point, both restarting and reloading, while obviously not strictly the same thing, amount to getting a better situation from the game than you had before. so saying that one is perfectly correct and the other is the Big Bad Evil Cheat is completely biased, i think.

 

[Moonsinger]

anyway, back to the point, both restarting and reloading, while obviously not strictly the same thing, amount to getting a better situation from the game than you had before. so saying that one is perfectly correct and the other is the Big Bad Evil Cheat is completely biased, i think.

How do you know that some of the AIs didn't get a better starting position as well? MapFinder just give you the starting position that you ask for; it has never evaluated the AIs location. In fact, it doesn't even know anything about the AIs in the game. As far as it knows, all the AIs are starting in heaven and I start by a river and a cow; the only reason it gives me this map because I ask for a river and a cow. Just because I'm getting what I ask for, that doesn't mean that I'm hurting the other guys (AIs) in anyway. Therefore, the argument that I'm getting a better deal "because I exploit" doesn't really hold any water.

 

[Percy]

of course it does hold water... you're getting what you're asking for ! that's the point ! you should be getting what you're given, else you are stacking the game. as is stacking the game to reload because you didn't pay enough attention to contact the AIs soon enough, or to prevent the city from rioting, or because you think it is plain stupid to have 4 Immortals lose to an unfortified conscript spearman.

 

[MeteorPunch]

I think this comparison, while similar, is really apples and oranges. We could argue both points forver. As far as this site is concerned, one is allowed competitively and the other isn't.

 

[Percy]

i agree it is apples and oranges. but both are fruits =)

 

[WackenOpenAir]

finding a good start position for the HOF is perfectly reasonable because:

-Everyone can do it. It can not be checked unlike reloading and thus disalowing it would surely harm the fair people vs the non fair people (which there would certainly be).

-It reduces the start position luck facktor. If we both start a game, i start on lush river land with cows and you start on desert, you have absolutely no chance of winning.

-People are alowed to play as many games as they want and submitting only their best game. Should you be forced to play every game till the very end when you already know you aren't gonna win, or maybe even know you will be destroyed by the AI ? - I think not, i think abandoning a game is ok. If it is ok to abandon it halfway, is it also ok to abandon it after playing for an hour? is it also ok to abandon it after not playing at all ?

Restarting games improves the fair competition. Using a tool that can check 10000 maps will improve the fair competition even more, but of course only if everyone uses it. (not using it is your own choise though)

 

[Rohili]

It can not be checked unlike reloading and thus disalowing it would surely harm the fair people vs the non fair people (which there would certainly be).

I agree with your arguments, Wacken. However the above point interests me: How can reloading be detected? I'm sure it can only be detected under very few circumstances.

 

[Moonsinger]

of course it does hold water... you're getting what you're asking for ! that's the point ! you should be getting what you're given, else you are stacking the game. as is stacking the game to reload because you didn't pay enough attention to contact the AIs soon enough, or to prevent the city from rioting, or because you think it is plain stupid to have 4 Immortals lose to an unfortified conscript spearman.

This debate reminds me of a movie, Bedazzled. You can read the review about it here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...ref=sr_1_1/103-3052627-9172653?v=glance&s=dvd

I bought it years ago, but haven't had time to see it yet. Basically, he was given 7 wishes. Just because he gets exact what he wishes for, that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. Just because I get my wish, that doesn't mean that it will be bad for the AIs. You didn't answer my other question: how do you know that the AIs didn't get a better deal than you?

Would you like to see an actual game where I got exactly what I wish for? A good starting location by meadow next to a river with 4 cows. There is also three major different sources of luxury near by too. It's a sid game and by 1000BC, I was the tech leader. Do you think that my good starting position is an exploit to the AIs in this case? Well, just because I got a really good start, that doesn't mean I'm hurting the AIs in anyway. Guess what? As it turns out, I ended up with Persia, Germany, and Greece right next to my border. I also got no horse, and no iron. So much for a good start, right? Like I said before, just because I get my wishes, that doesn't mean the other guys didn't get their wishes too. This doesn't seem like an exploit at all, does it?

 

[BlackJAC]

Ok, I'll bite.

Just a theory, but wouldn't it have been coded into the game in the first place that everyone recieves 2 cows, w/river each and everytime, regardless of how many times you load up any given map without the aid of a 3rd party tool?

The fact remains you're still using a form of cheating whether you care to admit it or not.

 

[Moonsinger]

Ok, I'll bite,

Just a theory, but wouldn't it have been coded into the game in the first place that everyone recieves 2 cows, w/river each and everytime, regardless of how many times you load up any given map without the aid of a 3rd party tool?

You were getting ahead by calling it an exploit, but by calling it "cheating", you have just blown it!

The fact remains you're still using a form of cheating whether you care to admit it or not.

Ok, let me try another way: if your instructor allow the use of a calculator on the Math exam. Some people use it some don't, do you consider those that use the calculator on their math exam as "cheater"? It would consider as a cheat iff (if and only if) the instructor said "no calculator" and you use one anyway. On the issue of "exploit", what do you think you gain in this case? In some cases, the use of calculator may lower your ability to do math; therefore, it may hurt you down the road. Just because you are getting a good deal at the moment, that doesn't mean that you are an exploiter.

 

[Rohili]

This debate reminds me of a movie, Bedazzled. You can read the review about it here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...ref=sr_1_1/103-3052627-9172653?v=glance&s=dvd

I bought it years ago, but haven't had time to see it yet. Basically, he was given 7 wishes. Just because he gets exact what he wishes for, that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. Just because I get my wish, that doesn't mean that it will be bad for the AIs. You didn't answer my other question: how do you know that the AIs didn't get a better deal than you?

Would you like to see an actual game where I got exactly what I wish for? A good starting location by meadow next to a river with 4 cows. There is also three major different sources of luxury near by too. It's a sid game and by 1000BC, I was the tech leader. Do you think that my good starting position is an exploit to the AIs in this case? Well, just because I got a really good start, that doesn't mean I'm hurting the AIs in anyway. Guess what? As it turns out, I ended up with Persia, Germany, and Greece right next to my border. I also got no horse, and no iron. So much for a good start, right? Like I said before, just because I get my wishes, that doesn't mean the other guys didn't get their wishes too. This doesn't seem like an exploit at all, does it?

Heh, I watched Bedazzled, loved it.

OK, what if before entering a barb hut, I saved the game. If the barb hut produces barbs, I reload it and try again, until it gives me a tech (preserve random seed off). Would that be considered an exploit? I don't hurt any AIs, all I do is benefit myself, reloading until the RNG favours me, just like restarting until I get a good position.

 

[IbnSina]

Ok guys, cut it out. The day you can have as many HOF stats and GOTM wins as Moonsinger, then you can criticize her play. To call a person with her credentials a cheater only makes you look bad.

 

[BlackJAC]

Saying someone's exploiting a game by using a 3rd party tool usually means they're using a cheat to a greater or lesser extent. Or whatever way you want to dress it up.

I'm about to leave work, so I'll respond to the other part later.

 

[TyranusBonehead]

I don't reload, unless of course in the event of a crash.

If I screwed up and find myself losing I will often try to take action to correct the problem, but if the situation is hopeless, I write it off as a learning experience and start a new game.

 

[Moonsinger]

i agree it is apples and oranges. but both are fruits =)

Some fruits are safe for eating, some are not. Some fruits are more poisonous than the other and some could even kill you by touch. Therefore, the argument that all fruits are the same doesn't really hold water.

 

[Rohili]

Anyway, no one has answered my noob question yet: How can reloading be detected in the game?

 

[Moonsinger]

Ok guys, cut it out. The day you can have as many HOF stats and GOTM wins as Moonsinger, then you can criticize her play. To call a person with her credentials a cheater only makes you look bad.

Well, I don't really mind what people think of me. I'm just trying to defend a utility like MapFinder that does no harm and break no rule.

 

[Moonsinger]

Anyway, no one has answered my noob question yet: How can reloading be detected in the game?

I don't know how, but I'm sure Firaxis and everyone on the top of the food chain here at CFC know how. If you are playing the GOTM, or HoF, it would be best to stay far far away from reloading because I'm sure it can be detected.

 

[Percy]

@IbnSina
that must have been the most off-topic post ever.
i don't care who Moonsinger or anyone else is. i am not calling anyone a cheater, or a bad player. none of us are. the skill of Moonsinger at Civ3 is so irrelevant i cannot even try to understand ow this could be brought up in the discussion, let us drop this asap.

@Wacken

Should you be forced to play every game till the very end when you already know you aren't gonna win, or maybe even know you will be destroyed by the AI ?

once and for all, PLEASE PEOPLE, read what we write. NONE of us (BlackJAC, Rohili, and myself) EVER said that or something approaching. we've been misquoted sicne the beginning of the thread... our point is NOT that you should play to the end, or start and play a game of Sid on a 25 square squares (^^) tundra island.
our point is that RESTARTING the game in order to have a BETTER start is a form of tweaking/abusing/cheating the game to GET what you didn't get in the beginning. and SO is reloading when your tank loses to a spear (^^) or when you unintentionally moved the worker or when you forgot to prevent riots.
to clear it definitely i hope: i DO restart when the starts don't seem fun, and i DO reload when something like a riot happens, or when i forgot to go through the tedious MM of my settler factory for the Zth turn.

@Moonsinger
nothing personal, but the math example is totally irrelevant. unless there's a hidden ethics when dealing with math problems that i was not aware of when i studied it.

So much for a good start, right?

then if so, why didn't you play the first start ? please, be honest: if you use another start, it is because you think you'll get a better game, otherwise you wouldn't go through the trouble. also, humans benefit much more from advantages than the AI cause they can manage them in the most effective manner. we already see that humans can beat Sid "easily", even though the AI gets tremendous advantages. if all the AI and the Human were given +10kPO at the beginning, the human would benefit much more of it than the AI. this is the same for the start: no matter how good a start the AI will get, it will ruin part of it due to bad coding, while the human will maximize the efficiency.
and to stress it once again, if you genuinely did not think that it improves your chances to win the game, you would not bother restarting or going through N iterations to find a map that suits the parameters you entered.

EDIT:

Well, I don't really mind what people think of me. I'm just trying to defend a utility like MapFinder that does no harm and break no rule.

this has nothing to do with the topic... i really don't think anything of you, good or bad. i don't have the pleasure to know you. but this is beyond the point. and we are not "attacking" MapFinder, which is a great utility. we are not saying it is cheating by the rules of the HoF etc, since it is clearly allowed.
however, we are saying that, people who say these two things basically contradict themselves and their reasonning:
- restarting until i get 6 cows and all-river tiles is ok and it's not cheating.
- reloading when you accidentally move a worker/forget to prevent riots/get humiliated by the RNG is bad.
also, i read many times that "not reloading helps you improve". it is certainly very true. but then, coping with whatever start you have does help you improve, i'm sure.