Do you reload?

[Moonsinger]

It seems there's some people on here that don't allow for opinions which differ from their own, that's why this has turned into a "he said this", "I said that" type of debate.

It was never my intention to question your achievements, achievements that more than likely put my own to shame, nor was it my intention to offend anyone. I just thought it was an interesting debate with regard to why Mapfinder is acceptable to some and not to others.

We both know that I never have any ill feeling toward you. As far as my achievement is concerned, I have never really achieved anything more than you do. We are both playing this game for fun. Sure, I may be able to score some game a little bit higher than you, but that would usually come down to one imporant factor: I exploit the AI's more than you do. By not exploiting them as much I do, you would naturally end up with a lesser score, but that is in no way saying that you are not a good player. Therefore, don't be too hard on yourself. As far as I'm concerned, you are as good as any of us.

You want to hear a funny story. There was a time I worship DaveMcW for his extremely super fast space launch beause I could never match his. Until one day, I found out that he is using some tricks that I wasn't aware of. You can read more about his free tech tricks at the article forum. Now, I still worship him because he shared his tricks with me. You see...we aren't much different after all.

 

[Moonsinger]

Out of interest, wouldn't it be more practical if HoF was geared towards bad starts rather than those who start off with all the desired tools in the first place?

This would eliminate most of the pitfalls in the first place.

Then eveyone will be searching for the the worst possible start. It's really the same can of worms with a different label, IMO.

 

[Percy]

that is why i think that GOTM are cool, because afaik, you don't spend hours searching for a better start than your competitors. everyone has the same tools, and there you go. but i don't know enough about GOTMs. it would be cool, if it is not the case, that the maps are not always "uber starts". to compare achievements in different contexts.

 

[Moonsinger]

that is why i think that GOTM are cool, because afaik, you don't spend hours searching for a better start than your competitors. everyone has the same tools, and there you go. but i don't know enough about GOTMs. it would be cool, if it is not the case, that the maps are not always "uber starts". to compare achievements in different contexts.

Unlike the GOTM, the HoF is like the hall of record for the highest and fastest possible of whatver score/win for Civ3 in general. In order to attempt for the best possible win, you need a good map. Exactly the primary reason to create MapFinder in the first place. With MapFinder, everyone now would have an equal chance of getting a good map; therefore, even out the level of the playing field. Although everyone map is different, we are all will be starting out with some really good map. For example, if I start out with 2 cows by a river, I'm sure you will find a map with 2 cows by a river for you without any problem.

 

[JackRules]

I've enjoyed reading this debate very much. When I first started plying CIV3, having no experience with turn based computer games and not being much of a computer guy either, it never occured to me that I could reload because I didn't even know about auto saves. And not understanding the game, it never occured to me that some maps were allot better than others. So I never reloaded or restarted. Of course over time I learned about these things. I agree with the opinion that the game is for fun and what one does in a private game is their own business. It really is all about enjoying the game for all of us. We do what we want to improve our chances of enjoying the game. If that means winning at all costs, then reload away! For me, reloading has never been an option, even when I suffer because of mis-clicks or bad RNG or city flips. I'm one of those people that believes if I make a mistake, even one outside of gameplay, I should live with the consequences. That's how I learn from my mistakes (and I make tons of mistakes in CIV and in life).

I think that Moonsinger and many other good players would say that they have no need for Mapfinder on Monarch, but on Sid, it is indespensable. I'd guess there are very few who can win the majority of their games on Sid with random starts. That's why the game has many levels of difficulty.

I agree with Moonsinger that if you are attempting an HOF game, and Mapfinder is allowed, then have at it. It isn't cheating. It's using the Rules to your (initial) advantage (or at least minimizing your disadvantage). I know that in GOTM/COTM the maps are generated by Ainwood and some of those starts are not terribly good. If you compete against others, play by the Rules...if you don't like those Rules, voice your opinion or simply choose not to participate. Personally, if I get a really bad map, I may give it a shot and get roundly crushed, or I might look for a better one (I've never tried Mapfinder). For some, investing hours in an "unwinable" game is not fun, while others have no problem with that. In the end, I know when I have won or lost a game, even if I don't play to the end. I'm still not a good player (struggle on Monarch), but on the rare occasions when I have the time to devote to a game, I enjoy it for what it is...a game. Hey, thanks for listening.

 

[Alexfrog]

I reload if my starting position isnt good, until I get something good. (I feel its silly not to, since I'm trying to play on Deity). Other than that, I'll reload if I make a movement mistake, which is rare. Sometimes, I'll go back a whole bunch of turns, if things are going very badly, to learn whether I couldve done something different, and see what I did wrong.

 

[BlackJAC]

When I first started plying CIV3, having no experience with turn based computer games and not being much of a computer guy either

I can relate to what you're saying, as it was only about 3 years ago that i decided to purchase a PC. Being 30 I left school before PC's started to play an integral part within the UK's national schooling curriculum. So I wasn't ever really interested until i got a job that required me to learn how to utilise a PC.

The first type of adventure game i tried on the PC was Warcraft 3. Having given W2 a bash on the PS1 I was immediately aware how complex W3 was compared to it's PS1 counterpart. I then borrowed Civ 3 from my mate and apart from spending a few weeks here and there on the Total War series and to a lesser extent the Championship manager series Civ3 has been the only game that's kept my interest long-term.

 

[JackRules]

Thanks BlackJAC...I'm sure my "advanced" age had a lot to do with my lack of experience with PC games...I'm 46 and when I was a kid, a computer was something NASA had in a big room in Houston. I was close to 30 when I bought my first machine. Still trying to catch up, but always behind the curve. I think to be a really good CIV player requires a certain degree of "game intuitiveness" that only comes from playing computer games from a young age.

 

[Breunor]

Hi everyone!

I just want to say this has been a great thread for me to read. I don't have a lot to add, but I just wanted to get a chance to chime in. I think now most of the people here are talking in each other's language.

I find the discussion here interesting because I am an 'advanced beginner'. I know I'm never going to be a great player, but I'm interested in where I stack up, and what I have to do. Are there easy things I need to do? Do I pay less attention than
others?

I'm also older than most of the rest of you (JackRules, I'm older than you!) and this may impact my perspective.

I think one of the advantages of this forum is that we have an ability to do these comparisons, given that direct play for this kind of game is hard (this kind of game can be read as 'long to play'). So, we have an Hof, and a GOTM, which I've just started to play. Since these DEFINE the rules that are allowed, many of the moral issues here then don't need to be addressed -- everybody entering has a level playing field. Therefore, if the rules say you can reload, you can. If they say you can't, you can't.

Of course, that may be different from a random game. There really isn't much to debate -- in the HoF, you can use tools that are explicitly allowed. And, in a random game, using them of course gives you an advantage over somebody that doesn't. Nobody disagrees, I'm pretty sure.

Finally, it is obvious that anybody playing a solitaire game in his/her own home should play however or whatever way he/she wants to enjoy the game the best. Who cares about anything else?


However, the reason I'm really interested in this is that I guess I naturally am interested in where I stand relative to others here. I've read, for instance, that you can win on Diety playing only a builder strategy. I've wondered if this can be done:

Always by the best players,
Sometimes by the best players,
Always by SOME of the VERY best players and sometimes by others,
Always, but only if most of the players reload if they get bad starts
Most of the time, but with some utilities,
Etc.

Anyway, its really a matter of curiosity. I once won easily on demigod building only, but I did get a perfect start (I probably would have won on diety). But that was once ....

So, I'm kind of interested in some of the points here.

In terms of the main issue, reloading:

I RECOMMEND that beginners save at certain critical points. Play them out. Then, reload to play alternatively. For instance, governments really take a while to get the hang of. There is another Republic/Monarch thread going on now. It probably helps when you first start to play to load each one, and see how the game develops. It is more of a controlled experiment.

It reminds me of chess against a computer. You probably should learn not to take back moves -- but, if you play the computer, you should go back over the game, and change moves to see where you can improve the game. And so for Civ.


The idea of reloading for bad outcomes is more complex. I don't recommend doing it, since you really do get used to it.

But I have done it and continue to. If I haven't played the game in a week, and I reload, I often 'forget' something important. I'll simply reload. I also frequently reload for mouse errors (yes, those of us more advanced in years probably get more of them. Why not -- this isn't, to me, an arcade game!).

However, what about missing that a city is in disorder -- this is where I find the debate most interesting. I don't recommend it -- but, I do think if somebody has a utility that lets you know when a city is about to go into revolt, I really do think there isn't a differnce between using the utility and NOT using the utility and then reloading. In either case, you aren't checking cities and micromanaging.

Anyway, that is just my opinion.

Thanks everyone.

Breunor

 

[rysingsun]

i always complete every single game i ever play. what i do when i get a start i dont like is i disband my settler and when the turn ends i lose and if i have any cities i disband them too. and again i lose. hence i can play many many games in short while.

ok needless to say that was a joke but it makes a point. one person restarts until he gets a good position and another person disbands his settler and counts it a "legimately completed but lost game". i dont remember whether that was an apple an orange or a bananna but either way i see it extremely problematic to police restart games. perhaps hall of fame games should be dished out by a moderator who provides only one start per week and if you dont like it then you have to wait till next week. but lets face it you could still reload and short of having the staff hack your computer im willing to assert publicly i see no possible way anyone can PROVE that you reloaded. the only really critical time to reload a game anyway is when an ai declares war on you and if you reload a few turns back it will not look like you reloaded. its all about honesty. you assert that you never reloaded and we all believe you.

what in the world is an exploit? rop rape is an exploit (though the ai does it!) but forming an alliance against someone on the opposite side of the globe who you have no intention of attacking is not? the second one is a far more powerful tactic and is widely used. there is a lot of arbritrariness here but we accept the rules because its either accept the rules or you dont get the glory.

of course mapfinder is an exploit. its a third party hack into the game. enough said.

someday somebody is going to develop a utility called "nextrandom" which you have running in the background and it tells you what the result of the next battle would be should you choose to do it. and people will use it in hof games and someone will point out "we have the formula. we could use our pocket calculators to find out the next result if we were so inclined and make our strategy accordingly so this utility is nothing but a timesaver so its not cheating". is this any different from utitilities like the flipcalc?

and what if one person has 50 hours/week to play and another has 10? the former has an unfair advantage! he may be a less "intelligent" player and have a higher spot up on the trophy wall simply because he was lucky enough to inherit wealth and not have to have a job. are we going to police this too and require a cap on hours played per week?

but who cares? i play my games for my own enjoyment. if i want to boast about one of my wins i say what i did and what came of it without lying and all you guys can form your personal opinions on the "level of glory" that ive achieved. if indeed i have not lied then the glory accorded me i can revel in honestly. otherwise im glorying in what people erroneously perceive in me. if that gets me kicks then im easily impressed thats all.

ive mainly learned one thing from this thread. that among the better players i am not alone in reloading. the very large majority of good players do so.

 

[joe_pt]

I'm new to CIV3 and it is very different from CIV2 so I will reload in CIV3 to learn from my mistakes. I used to do it in CIV2 until I understood all (or most of the variables) and then I just said I wouldn't reload in CIV2 anymore.

Right now my learning curve is still in the begining for CIV3 so I will reload ocassionaly. CIV3 is very complex and the only way to learn is to experiment what impact different decisions will have given the same scenario (or variables) so reloading is the only option.

Having said that, my objective is to not reload at all since the game is much more fun that way!

 

[mikezang]

I try to avoid reload, but I still reload soemtimes.

 

[Daghdha]

and what if one person has 50 hours/week to play and another has 10? the former has an unfair advantage! he may be a less "intelligent" player and have a higher spot up on the trophy wall simply because he was lucky enough to inherit wealth and not have to have a job. are we going to police this too and require a cap on hours played per week?

Hmm ...good point! Could that be a funny variant of playing for those/us who like to compete a bit but don't have too much time to spend? The game counts time played so one one way to do would be:
Highest score within 1/2/3 hrs
Most rivals defeated within 1/2/3 hrs
Most culture within 1/2/3 hrs
Most tiles within 1/2/3 hrs
etc (ss would probably be out of the question for most of us except for the creme de la creme).
Maybe you could even accept reloading since it steals time and time would be crucial? The setup should probably be like in GOTM with a pre fixed civ/opponents and map.
Just a thought, don't know if it's new or old or even doable...

Concerning the original Q it depends on the purpous of the current game. When "researchin" I reload, when "applying" I don't. I guess you would have to be very specific about what is formally allowed in the situation at hand to be abel to say cheat/no-cheat. In HoF mapfinder is allowed so it's a no-cheat per definition. Reloading/exploits/utilityprogs is not cheating per se but it is in a context where such actions are prohibited by given rules. Besides that it's all a question about how you like to play the game for most fun which is a matter of personal opinion and therefore can't be settled by looking in "right answers" section of the civilopedia.
Phew, that was a load of

 

[Civ3man]

I think the thread has been going into the wrong direction for quite a while now.
The real question is are there good reasons for reloading or not.
I think there are - when ever you end up doing sth you didn't want or when you don't do sth you wanted it is okay to relaod. When what you do does not work like you imaged you should not reload. Instead learn the painful but valuable lesson and improve your strategy.
I would be very surprised if the ppl that never ever relaod never ever use any exploit either. And I don't care whether the exploit is "allowed" by the HoF or not because the HoF rules are not the 10 commandments and some exploits can have a huge impact (RoP rape, GL elevator, etc.)

I think a balanced approach to reloads/exploits (sometimes it may be okay) is most sensible - after all it's just a game.

Just because we're on civfanatics.com does not mean we have to act like religious fanatics on a particular topic
But maybe some ppl have been playing civ so much that the try to emulate their favourite traits (being religious about certain topics; inustriously writing forum messages in a militaristic style

 

[Daghdha]

And I don't care whether the exploit is "allowed" by the HoF or not

My point was not that Hof rules r the 10 commandments to be followed. What I ment was that within that context map finder is not a cheat. In some other context e.g. "Let's play with whatever starting position we get" it would be a cheat. I don't care about HoF rules either other than when I amuse myself with trying for a slot.
State the rules (if you like), play within them and have fun, that's my 2 cents but maybe I'm a bit too...ehh, seafaring

 

[Chinghis]

OK, haven't read the whole 7-page debate... but I think I have to change my answer. I originally answered "No," but I now realise that I do reload, sometimes. I tend not to do it for a bad move of a unit or if I lose a town through stupidity, but because I'm still learning a lot of this game. Still getting used to how long anarchy lasts, and why it's really not a good idea to do a government change during your Golden Age. Learned that last night, so I might reload and go back to monarchy for the duration of my GA.

So, yes, I do sometimes save before changing from Monarchy to Republic, and then reload if Republic doesn't seem to be working out for me 7-10 turns later after the anarchy.

 

[Solomwi]

I'll reload for mouse slips, small management things I specifically made a mental note to do, then forgot by the end of the turn, and other things of that nature. I never go back farther than one turn, though, and don't reload to change RNG events or change a decision I actually made that turned out badly. I save at the end of each turn, so I can go back if I want and recreate what happened in a game (I keep brief histories of my epic games, too), so sometimes I get lazy on micromanagement and end the turn just to see which cities need fixing, then go back and fix them. That's more of an effort-saver than anything, though.

Edit: ARRRRRGH! Case in point where reloading is a strong temptation (this one just happened, btw): I'm playing Rise of Rome, and at war with Persia in Asia Minor. He's got a heavy cavalry (defense: 2) atop a mountain, unfortified (modified defense: 4), that got redlined when I attacked with a vet Legionary III (attack: 6). My Legionary died and he's left with a single hitpoint. Okay, it happens, and I've got an elite Legionary III (again, attack: 6, and to boot, six hitpoints) at full health in range. Easy leader chance here. Imagine my horror as I watch my Legionary lose one, then two, then SIX successive RNG rolls he had a 60% chance of winning, when all I needed was one.

 

[Civ3man]

maybe I'm a bit too...ehh, seafaring

Well, keep it up my seafaring friend. I did mean you in particular but if you feel adressed. . . . Maybe you're Spanish after all

 

[Daghdha]

I did mean you in particular

HOLA!
Could be one of the reasons I felt addressed..........(had to)
The other might be you quoting me.

*Merrely rowing down the stream*

 

[Mad2rix]

I used to reload often, however if it were up to me to submit my best scores of Hall of Fame, I kept on practicing playing the whole game straight without that exploit.