Merkinball
Deity
What reasons are those? Darfur, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, and elements of Iran and North Korea, all rolled into one nice neat little package.
Do you support the Iraq war TODAY??? NOTE: READ ARGUMENT FIRST! THEN vote
- Thread starter Emperor2
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""Ignoring the irrationality of middle eastern politics will ultimately end up being the wests own problem. Especially when you look at immigration, immigration policies, and the way Muslim immigrants are treated in various western societies. Ignoring the middle east, in the end, will cost countless more lives, and a much more serious moral debate than what's being done now.
Thanks everyone. So, in essence, both Iraq and Afghanistan were essentially the same. Both governments were state sponsors of terror, represented brutal examples of human and civil rights.
The reason of being against the war, and further action in the middle east because "we were lied to. We didn't find any WMD stockpiles like advertised." In my opinion, ignores all the other reasons we went and should have gone to war with Saddam, and in the end, is just completely and utterly morally bankrupt.""
why is europe allowing all the muslim immigration and why hasnt the U.S fixed the border yet? our border is wide open, anyone can walk right through
we supported saddam and the taliban in the 80s and gave them weapons
"On 25 May 1994, The U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that pathogenic, toxicological, and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq, pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction." The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Anthrax Bacillus) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding that "these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."
"A report by Berlin's Die Tageszeitung in 2002 reported that Iraq's 11,000-page report to the UN Security Council listed 150 foreign companies that supported Saddam Hussein's WMD program. Twenty-four U.S. firms were involved in exporting arms and materials to Baghdad Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that made the report, said, "UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs." He added, "the executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record."
"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 agents "with biological warfare significance," including West Nile virus, according to Riegle's investigators."
"On 21 March 1986, the United Nations Security Council made a declaration stating that "members are profoundly concerned by the unanimous conclusion of the specialists that chemical weapons on many occasions have been used by Iraqi forces against Iranian troops and the members of the Council strongly condemn this continued use of chemical weapons in clear violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 which prohibits the use in war of chemical weapons." The United States was the only member who voted against the issuance of this statement."
"With more than 100,000 Iranian victims of Iraq's chemical weapons during the eight-year war, Iran is one the countries most severely afflicted by weapons of mass destruction."
we supported that ... we gave them the chemical weapons that they killed the kurds and other people with
we have been a morally bankrupt nation for a long time buddy and what i just posted barely scratches the surface
Thanks everyone. So, in essence, both Iraq and Afghanistan were essentially the same. Both governments were state sponsors of terror, represented brutal examples of human and civil rights.
The reason of being against the war, and further action in the middle east because "we were lied to. We didn't find any WMD stockpiles like advertised." In my opinion, ignores all the other reasons we went and should have gone to war with Saddam, and in the end, is just completely and utterly morally bankrupt.""
why is europe allowing all the muslim immigration and why hasnt the U.S fixed the border yet? our border is wide open, anyone can walk right through
we supported saddam and the taliban in the 80s and gave them weapons
"On 25 May 1994, The U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that pathogenic, toxicological, and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq, pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction." The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Anthrax Bacillus) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding that "these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."
"A report by Berlin's Die Tageszeitung in 2002 reported that Iraq's 11,000-page report to the UN Security Council listed 150 foreign companies that supported Saddam Hussein's WMD program. Twenty-four U.S. firms were involved in exporting arms and materials to Baghdad Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that made the report, said, "UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs." He added, "the executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record."
"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 agents "with biological warfare significance," including West Nile virus, according to Riegle's investigators."
"On 21 March 1986, the United Nations Security Council made a declaration stating that "members are profoundly concerned by the unanimous conclusion of the specialists that chemical weapons on many occasions have been used by Iraqi forces against Iranian troops and the members of the Council strongly condemn this continued use of chemical weapons in clear violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 which prohibits the use in war of chemical weapons." The United States was the only member who voted against the issuance of this statement."
"With more than 100,000 Iranian victims of Iraq's chemical weapons during the eight-year war, Iran is one the countries most severely afflicted by weapons of mass destruction."
we supported that ... we gave them the chemical weapons that they killed the kurds and other people with
we have been a morally bankrupt nation for a long time buddy and what i just posted barely scratches the surface
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Wasn't that the 11000 page document that was totally ignored for not being good enough by the Americans in the run up to the war before anyone had even read it?
nonconformist
Miserable
Afghanistan and Iraq couldn't have been more different.
Afghanistan was a desolate waste ruled by a very shifty loose group of religious fundementalists who instituted a harsh regime of sharia law, who tried to destroy any culture existant, who were active on the international scene, to further their agenda, while Iraq was an urbanised country under a centralised command which was fundementally secular, isolationist, and westernising, which allowed (granted, lmited) opportunity to its citizens, and was based on fierce nationalism.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Plus Iraqi education was (maybe still is?) amongst the best in the world, women were given equal rights, etc.
Really?
I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but do you have something to confirm this?
TBH I think we should just train the iraqi army up some more and then let the UN forces handle it, we can send troops via the UN, but we are biased and will just be seen as outside invaders ( like that british general said) let iraq decide it's own fate.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Maybe only amongst the best in the Middle East, I've heard it on the news (BBC) a few times. Lots of Iraqi doctors and such, many of them women.
why would the UN vote to go in?
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Didn't the Iraq army get disbanded after we invaded?
Ah. I could see them having the best in the ME as you said. I wonder how well their public education is though, aside from the private, university levels; I doubt everyone gets equal educational opportunities in Iraq, though I could be wrong.
Well Saddam's henchman army was disbanded, but a new army/national guard was formed and trained by the coalition.
It's a major problem, with the potential to grow much bigger, it would be a peace keeping mission which is one of things the UN is meant to do, and which security council members would want to vote against it?
Source? Especially on womens' rights, saddam wasn't exactly the great egalitarian himself ya know!
they would engage in peace keeping missions that would be unnacceptable in losses.
who would vote against it?
China, Russia, France, Italy, Belgium, Panama, Peru, South Africa, Congo, Ghana?
cmon!
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm
That was the first hit of relevance on "Iraq education women".
That was the first hit of relevance on "Iraq education women".
nonconformist
Miserable
Absolutely all pre-existing institutions were disbanded, swamping the country with unemployed young men, and leaving no forces to stop anarchy.
As always happens (see: 1919 Germany), thousands of nationalistic unemployed young men drift to extremism and make up a major part of the insurgency, and US created polcie forces basically becomes a part of the insurgency.
To say the Iraqi police is "infiltrated" by insurgent groups is inaccurate; the Iraqi Police is more or less made up of Insurgents.
nonconformist
Miserable
No, it's true. Iraq had one of the best educational sytems in the Middle East, and being a secular country, women were afforded the same benefits as men.
Merkinball
Deity
Where does it say that? Funny, because I read the key word "duel use." The UN published all kinds of reports stating that nothing we ever gave them could be directly tied to the US. Except for helicopters that were used often dispatch chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war.
It's funny that anthrax has all kinds of legitimate uses in the medical industry...
Anyhow, do I think we should have even given Saddam dual use stuff? No. Are our hands nearly as dirty in Saddam's WMD programs than others? No, not even close. Does giving them dual use materials mean we can't correct wrongs made in the past now and in the future? Well, I honestly don't understand how.
This is one of the biggest myths out there. For a time, Saddam did wonders in just about all regards. He built the transportation network, built all kinds of schools, opened rights for girls and women, modernized the oil industry as we know it. However, all that stuff ended before Iraq-Iran war, funds went to various wars and programs. From then on, the Kurds and Shi'ites were essentially given no basic services at all. Education invariably suffered, no new schools were built, Kurd and Shi'ite teachers weren't paid, the majority of the schools fell into disrepair. At the advent of GWII, Iraq, after once having the highest literacy rate in the middle east, had one of the lowest literacy rates. UNESCO puts the illiteracy rate in Iraq at 60% in 2003. 70%+ among women.
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/education.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Iraq
brennan
Argumentative Brit
From the wiki you quoted:
So basically it was sanctions that ruined everything. Not Saddam.
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