Do you think that rainforest starts serve as a balance mechanism for surrounded civs?

[Bliss]

Rainforests give you defense strenght and yield bonuses (as well as chopping opportunity), however, comes with an almost-assured fact: you have enemies to your north, south, east and west. Could their benefits be enough for us to say that such starts aren't naturally a handicap?

 

[lotrmith]

an almost-assured fact: you have enemies to your north, south, east and west.

This... isn't even close to assured.

 

[Sostratus]

A big downside of jungle, IMO, is that it ironically usually means a poor food start since jungle only spawns on plains, so you really need to work a bit to get 3 food tiles. Be they bananas or whatever, it’s just very constrained unless you chop; but if you chop then you’re giving up the jungle you may want (Brazil and Kongo both want it to some extent!)

 

[Tech Osen]

almost-assured fact: you have enemies to your north, south, east and west.

On Pangea maps maybe? Don't think it's an issue on most other map types. And I see plenty rainforests on the coast.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Rainforest or Mountain bias really worth a lot in GS.

 

[steveg700]

A big downside of jungle, IMO, is that it ironically usually means a poor food start since jungle only spawns on plains, so you really need to work a bit to get 3 food tiles. Be they bananas or whatever, it’s just very constrained unless you chop; but if you chop then you’re giving up the jungle you may want (Brazil and Kongo both want it to some extent!)

I haven't seen it that way. To me, rainforests make for good early tiles when builder charges are scarce. Most jungles have banana patches to boost food too. Happy to have'em then, and happy to chop them later.

 

[Bliss]

A big downside of jungle, IMO, is that it ironically usually means a poor food start since jungle only spawns on plains, so you really need to work a bit to get 3 food tiles. Be they bananas or whatever, it’s just very constrained unless you chop; but if you chop then you’re giving up the jungle you may want (Brazil and Kongo both want it to some extent!)

I haven't seen it that way. To me, rainforests make for good early tiles when builder charges are scarce. Most jungles have banana patches to boost food too. Happy to have'em then, and happy to chop them later.

The problem is, I think, they have good "default yields". 2f1h is much better than some starts without features/hills, however, they don't excel in anything, thus making them suboptimal on the long-term.

If you are not going to chop them in the ancient/classical age, you gotta use that small window to ignore builders and probably rush settlers or army instead.

This... isn't even close to assured.

It is a matter of geography. The closer you are to the Equator line (middle of map) the more you will have jungle. They are a likely feature for warmer weathers.

 

[lotrmith]

It is a matter of geography. The closer you are to the Equator line (middle of map) the more you will have jungle. They are a likely feature for warmer weathers.

I am fully aware of the terrain generation. However your assertion that you're more than likely to have enemies nearby in every direction of rainforest is absurd. On nearly every map type you'll have some coast in one or more directions, and the chance at some tundra (north/south map borders). Even on Pangea you're likely to be protected from one or more directions by a mountain boundary.

Just look at the true to life Earth map and where rainforests are in relation to potential civs (in a true start location setting).

 

[Sostratus]

The problem is, I think, they have good "default yields". 2f1h is much better than some starts without features/hills, however, they don't excel in anything, thus making them suboptimal on the long-term.

If you are not going to chop them in the ancient/classical age, you gotta use that small window to ignore builders and probably rush settlers or army instead.

Literally out of the gate isn’t the issue (when everyone would rather work 3 yield jungle tiles than 2 Yield flat land) but the question is always- how do you grow a group of size 7-10 cities quickly and effectively?
Since jungle can only take lumbermills, that puts you into chopping mode, but jungle chop food isn’t amazing in the ancient era. And farming plains puts you back to 2 food tiles until feudalism.
This isn’t game ending by any means, and it’s way better than a tundra start!
But it’s something that I notice with even regular civs when I start on plains vs grassland and there’s not much wheat around. Flat jungle really isn’t a great terrain until the Middle Ages unless you are Brazil.

Defensively the big issue is that jungle protects your enemies from your attacks too, particularly city strikes. Although it can block catapults from setting up at 2 tiles out.

All in all I think it’s better to start next to jungle and settle it once you have feudalism/lumbermills to just hit the ground running than to actually start in it.

 

[Bliss]

Literally out of the gate isn’t the issue (when everyone would rather work 3 yield jungle tiles than 2 Yield flat land) but the question is always- how do you grow a group of size 7-10 cities quickly and effectively?
Since jungle can only take lumbermills, that puts you into chopping mode, but jungle chop food isn’t amazing in the ancient era. And farming plains puts you back to 2 food tiles until feudalism.
This isn’t game ending by any means, and it’s way better than a tundra start!
But it’s something that I notice with even regular civs when I start on plains vs grassland and there’s not much wheat around. Flat jungle really isn’t a great terrain until the Middle Ages unless you are Brazil.

Defensively the big issue is that jungle protects your enemies from your attacks too, particularly city strikes. Although it can block catapults from setting up at 2 tiles out.

All in all I think it’s better to start next to jungle and settle it once you have feudalism/lumbermills to just hit the ground running than to actually start in it.

If you lack housing your best bet is to keep producing settlers or prepare for war. So, can we agree that jungle starts are good for at least Ancient Era?