1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Do you use Swordsman now?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by kamikazees, Jul 23, 2012.

  1. Piousflea

    Piousflea Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    I think Swordsmen would be fine if you could reveal Iron earlier.
     
  2. iconocast

    iconocast Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    375
    if u bee lin for swords u seem to be able to get them well b4 pikes. if u have iron that is. thats the only gamble. dosent seem to bad
     
  3. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3,654
    What do you want the most CS with all prerequest or Metal Casting with all prerequest. This gives you either sword or pikes and many other things. However for about 500 breakers you can get steel if you got MC and IW which allows you to uppgrade to longsword and 2 techs more you get muskets.
     
  4. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,057
    Location:
    World's largest lentil producer
    I find the upgrade path to be worth it if I'm playing a militant game. If I can recall, iron working is along the way to metal casting or whatever tech gives you the +2 production building, which is a significant boon if you're going militant. Add to that that the swordsmen upgrade path is one that lasts all game with the same type of quite powerful units that are useful in every single era. When those heavily upgraded pikes turn into lancers, all of the sudden you're either training new front line units or are adopting an unorthodox style for attacking cities.

    I don't think they need a buff. Simply because they aren't the obvious choice every time and there is another viable option to leading with swords that has distinct advantages in itself doesn't make them underpowered. The path Iron Working is on is not without its charms, and swordsmen upgrade to muskets/rifles/great war infantry unlike spears, and keep the upgrades they have from their very first unit. Elite front line units are to be treasured, and if you did happen to invest in the honour tree early on and kept going to war, by the time you're hitting infantry you will likely have some utterly amazing units spearheading your army. If you went for spears, you essentially lose the entire early period as a time for training your front line troops, since spears turn into cavalry type units after pikes.

    Edit: One thing I'd like though.. Reveal iron with bronze working. Make going swords less of a gamble.
     
  5. Mark the Bold

    Mark the Bold Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    149
    Not to go off on a tangent, but Iron Working is great because it allows you to build heroic epic. Heroic epic is a must-build National Wonder for all warmongerers.
     
  6. MooFreaky

    MooFreaky Meatbag Destroyer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Messages:
    335
    Swords are worth the extra cost IMO simply because they upgrade to gunpowder units rather than to horses.

    I'd much rather be spending gold to get some veteran muskets than to buy/build noob ones.

    That said, it is only if you have the luxury of time that you can do this. If you are at war and things are more urgent then you go Pikemen nearly every time.
     
  7. 19Mellon73

    19Mellon73 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    OS
    In my opinion the relative strengt of sword and pike are good as they are now. Pikes where some kind of regular army after all ( or professional mercenaries in the case of Landsknechte ). A 4.5 meter long pike is not that easy to handle, I guess !


    But, I think swords should get "cover" ( they are carrying a shield after all )
    As regular army pikes should get a bit more expensive, hammerwise. (upgrade to Lancer would become cheaper that way)
    The cover promotion should not be carried over to Longswords ( 2 handed sword after all)
    I like the early iron visibility idea.

    just my 0,02 €
     
  8. ahawk

    ahawk King

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    935
    Location:
    Milwaukee
    I never bother going swordsmen anymore unless I'm Japan (can upgrade them into Samurai and save some production) or Rome (Legion is still a reasonable unit, since I can always build a few and use them to build roads or something until I can attack anybody). Other than that, swordsmen are now like muskets used to be... obsolete far too soon.
     
  9. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,010
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    For real. All the other strategic resources give you advance warning so you can invest on the right part of the tree without a gamble. This would be the easiest fix to the swordman problem.

    Another mentioned fix that I liked was penalizing pikemen against ranged attacks. Pikemen should be swiss cheese on ranged. Seriously, what are they doing that level 1 warriors aren't... swiping at the arrows in mid-air with their pikes?
     
  10. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,705
    If you are playing defencivly go for pikeman and horses so you can focus on wonders and economy..


    Swordsman are more usefull for domination victories simply because there upgrade path is great..

    You proparly will not be able to rush you're oponent with a few swordsman you will need catapults and some other units..

    It seems that they are useless but they upgrade to swordsman a strong infantry unit of 21 strenght So it beats the pikeman easy and can't even fight against knights

    But the best way to use swords is that you can upgrade them into musketman This is extremely usefull if you are constantly fighting .. Musketman is one of the strongest units in the renaissance...

    After that they upgrade to rifleman and so on while pikes upgrade to lancers and it takes a lot of more tech to get to anti tank guns
     
  11. Liegence

    Liegence Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    153
    I almost always work through Education and build my army with Muskets after the Epic finishes. Pikes are nice and on that tech path, swords are weaker and I have a history of bad luck when spinning the wheel of iron. So, no. They're not worth it imho.
     
  12. john129pats

    john129pats Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    I play as the Iroquois and they don't require for their unique swordsman. I just skip Longswordsman and don't start making new units until Musketmen.
     
  13. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,169
    Location:
    Germany
    But even as the Iroquois, swordsmen are pretty bad. I'd say they need a (small!) bonus against ranged attacks which disappears after upgrading to longswords.
     
  14. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,959
    Location:
    Nehwon
    I think the stats of the Swordsmen are fine, but I think they need to move Iron Working a tier earlier and/or change the prerequisites to make it so it's not so easy to skip until the Medieval era. Right now the opportunity cost is too high -- Iron Working is expensive and there are a lot more attractive options to research instead.
     
  15. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,562
    ??? If you are going conquest and do not have an early UU, Swords are about the only and best choice (along with supporting cats, bowmen). It seems incongruous to say that Swords are useless when you really have no plans to use or prioritize them effectively. They can be used successfully early on to conquer multiple civs, if you make it a focus.
     
  16. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,959
    Location:
    Nehwon
    Swordsmen can certainly be effective if you're being aggressive and are actively fighting, if you beeline for Iron Working and you happen to have Iron in your territory. The problem is that there's no way to know whether you have any Iron or not until you've already researched Iron Working... it's a bit of a gamble, because it's an expensive tech that's a bit out of the way of other crucial infrastructure techs.
     
  17. Babri

    Babri Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,449
    Location:
    Pakistan
    Firstly as AriochIV stated IW is very risky since u may find iron or miss it. Secondly its cost is very high. And finally by the time u research IW it is not long before pikes start appearing which are clearly superior & u would need to wait till longswords to fight them.

    So the solutions can be :-
    1. Lower the cost of IW so that it is reasonable.
    2. Iron revealed at bronze working.
    3. Higher strength for swords, 15:c5strength: would be appropriate.
     
  18. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    3,562
    So you propose to make Swords even easier to get and/or more powerful? What's the challenge in that? As it is, as Arioch said, it is out of the way and you have to focus more on it; thus, a key decision-making criteria. Changes to the game should be to make the game more challenging at higher difficulties for human players. (I have a hard time winning consistently at Immortal but I would love to play at Prince and try to work my way up, ala Civ4.) Back on Swords. The AI opponents will jump ahead and get Pikes early, which can be a hassle but it's a good thing. No reason to dumb-down the game in giving us more of an advantage.
     
  19. Peacemongerer

    Peacemongerer Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    431
    Location:
    California
    Well they've got significantly better armor from what I can tell than the basic warriors (I don't even think they have armor), which has to count for something against arrows.
     
  20. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,968
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Québec
    I will use them if i can get some iron. For an initial rush, i will pick CBs over swordmen. But when important techs are discovered and i have to go further into the tech tree, i will research iron working before civil service or theology for example.

    Then i have to make a decision. Do i use them for more puppets or only for defense? It depends of quantity earned and actual situation and goals reachable.

    Steel tech is certainly a lot better in term of pure warfare. Swordmen can be valuable if you want to go pretty deep into the top tech tree(science/gold) and want to reach the ren. era ASAP without need of better defense.
     

Share This Page