DocT6: Celtic Retreat

Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
5,032
Location
Köln, Cologne, Colonia. Finally.
Just another nice map :) …



Map Settings:
Standard, Cold, Arid, 5 Billions, roaming Barbs, 80% Water Archipelago. Seed # 565727258.

Opponents:
England, France, America, Scandinavia, Germany, Rome, Russia (our historical "friends")

Demigod Level

Victory Conditions:
All regular ones enabled, but we are only allowed to win by 20k Culture


Variant Rules:
History has taught us a lesson. Once upon a time we settled almost all of Europe, but as soon as someone else entered our lands, and was welcomed as a friend, they always crowded us out and forced us to retreat to hostile areas and islands. We never will trust strangers again, at least not in greater numbers. But still, we are a civilized and peaceful nation.

1) We may never end a turn with a city where we do not have the population majority. If we capture a city, we must join enough native Workers/Settlers to reach the majority (we're experts in immigration after all ;) ) .
If we fail here, that city must be given to another Civ.
2) We prefer islands. As useless or hostile they may seem, we will always try to settle there first. (Since this is an Archipelago map, any starting landmasses are considered continents for that purpose.) We may fill our staring landmass first, of course. Hard to make a strict rule here, but I think the concept is understandable.
3) We are civilized. Would be easy to circumvent the population majority policy by simply razing everything, but we will abstain from razing, unless absolutely necessary.

Too hard? Loopholes to discuss/close before starting?

Renata and myself know our island already. No idea about neighboring islands, resources etc.
Would be pretty silly to pretend to not know this is a completely dry landmass, with something like 4 Grassland tiles directly N of us. No food boni except Fishes nearby, and the Oasis.

The only real question is:
What should be our 20k city? The capital, or the second city we found?
Naturally, the 20k city should get the green land…

Note I’ve made a completely minor tweak; nothing that’ll influence gameplay significantly, just adds some Celtic flavour. You need to install the zip-file into the …\Conquests\Scenario directory (the game can be played without, but you’ll be missing something ;) )

Files

Roster:
DocT
grs
el_filet
Renata
6thGenTex
romeothemonk

The Start
 
I debated a sarcastic comment along the lines of "surely you can make it harder than *that*", but having read your last SG and the rules for this one, I'm sure you could. :lol: I'll await the judgment of my betters as to the feasibility of the proposed variant, etcetera.

Wheee! *jumps off cliff, hoping to catch a parachute on the way down*

Renata
 
I loved DocT 03 and would like an oppurtunity to join the righteous crusade of the Celts.
However, due to my status as a grad student doing interviews and such the roster would need to be flexible. If this could not be the case, I would skip this one.
Thanks
 
Welcome 6thGenTexan.
With 4 players, this game will start; still waiting for one or two more sign-ups.

Any opinions on the opening moves?

i for one would use the capital as 20k city. Found 2 NW. Temple (assisted by chops), then Settler for a city 1 S or SE of the Oasis.
Research towards BW at max (don't know if we have any chance for the Colossus, but since this is a very useful wonder, we should at least try), then Mysticism. With no other REL Civ, having the Oracle as fallback for the Colossus seems pretty save.
After that, Alpha and hopefully find someone to get Masonry to use the Pyramids as GLib prebuild.
Don't think we have any chance for more than 2 Ancient Wonders, if at all...but an ultra-early Temple is worth more than msot wonders anyway.
We should try to move the palace once we're out of Despo, to be able to build the FP (twice as much culture, if built early enough), and use the Palace as prebuild for later wonders; but in Despo on DG, the corruption even next to the capital is too high IMHO.

I think we do have a decent chance for Colossus or Oracle, GLib, Sistine, USuffrage and any Modern Wonder.
Small chance for one or two out of Copernicus and Shakespear, Bach's and Newton's.
Thus, Small Wonders are crucial - FP, HE, Wall Street, Apollo each give at least 2cpt. So, some fighting ASAP seems required...
 
I concur with Doc on the Builds and Ideas.
I however usually like to try and sneak in the MoM as opposed to TGL in 20k games. I can usually on DG get both the MoM and the HG, with the MoM first. But I usually have the alphabet as a starter. I think we could still grab the MoM instead of TGL, as TGL doesn't allow us to control tech rates and MoM keeps guys working with a lower lux rate.
Definitely concur on the Early temple, colossus build, I can usually get that to go on DG. Then we can decide for the philo or monarchy route.
 
i for one would use the capital as 20k city. Found 2 NW. Temple (assisted by chops), then Settler for a city 1 S or SE of the Oasis.
That would give us a capital and 20k city with 5 deserts. This is somewhere between horrible and impossible. Adding some coastal and sea tiles...wow...even more horrible. I do not know if the islands holds any better (there have to be diamonds, eh sheep somewhere), but you think we have a chance on a single AA wonder there?
 
My thoughts:

I'm very dubious about the variant rule requiring vast numbers of our own nationality to be able to keep a captured town. Not like we're going to have vast numbers of spare population just lazing about. :) This would get easier if we do capture a high-food site, of course, but even then that's a whole lot of resources to expend that we don't really have. I'm still awaiting the judgment of my betters on this though. Betters, you out there? ;)

I still haven't been able to play enough conquests games to keep it straight: military leaders can rush a palace, or not?

As to the preferred build order and settlement site, I say yes to all. Second-city as 20K site would be suicidal; away from the grassland it'll take us 30 turns to build our first settler. Colossus/Library sounds like the best *plan*; maybe we could work out some contingency plans as we go along. As far as production in the capital goes, we're going to top out at size six for a long while anyway, so it's not like only having four or five grasslands to work there will be that much more evil. :lol: I anticipate more than a few missed Wonders, but oh well. As long as we're in a position to rush/build the cultural buildings rapidly when they come up, we'll do all right for a while. Check out SirPleb's COTM37: no ancient age wonders, and not all that much in the middle ages, and still got a decent date.

I can't remember how many bonus grasses and such there were up north -- anyone want to get in on the betting on 9 versus 10 spt max in despotism? :D

Renata
 
lurker's comment: Renata, the Palace is labeled as an "Improvement" in Conquests. MGLs can rush both Improvements and Small Wonders, so yes, you can rush the Palace with a MGL. I looked at the game in the editor and it looks you'll be in for a challenge. Good luck getting 10 spt. :)
 
I'm very dubious about the variant rule requiring vast numbers of our own nationality to be able to keep a captured town.
Well, we could always use enough Artillery to knock them down. But maybe we should agree on 'Not in Minoritiy'; this will make a big difference when we capture a size 1 town?
An yes, MGLs can rush the Palace; not sure if it's worth it, we could dedicate a city in a semi-useful location to it after Temple+Court, don't think the palace will be too expensive. The 1st MGL needs to be an Army by all means (for the HE).
 
Palace jumping is no big fun in conquests. The FP does not give you a second core here. Edit: ah ok, I got what this is meant to do. Just let us remember that our "former capital" and 20k city will not be waste free then, till we have a court and a police station.

About this rule
1) We may never end a turn with a city where we do not have the population majority. If we capture a city, we must join enough native Workers/Settlers to reach the majority (we're experts in immigration after all ) .
If we fail here, that city must be given to another Civ.
It will be quite hard to do that on the bigger AI cities, without pillaging them small beforehand. If we capture lets say Rome - size 18 - we would need to join 9 settlers to it, just that they will starve down because we can't feed them and this will result in a city that will have a majority of foreigners if I am not mistaken. So basically we need to pillage them small - and I mean size 1 or 2 at max in most cases before taking them, sounds hard.
 
I want this game to be not about conquering lots of cities. If we want some more islands/ crucial resources, we need to bring enough natives. If we desperately need to get rid of an AI capital close to launch/win by 20k, razing is on option. And giving them to the dead-last Civ will fullfill the same purpose.
Just let's try to not turn this into a capturing contest. But I think lowering the requirements to not in minority is better. One Worker for a size 1 town.

Btw, I can't remember what was the rule about nationality for cities gained by peacy treaties/ culture flips. One of those changed nationality, IIRC - but which one? Or is that completely wrong?
 
Cities from peace treaties change it to your citizens.
 
interesting variant with clear objective. i'd like to join.

how many grassland will come into city radius if moving 2 NW? if there are only the 3 with forest, taking the oasis into city radius migth help more toward a 20k city. it's bad for the first 10 turns, but will help afterwards.
 
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