Does FFH need a Lizardman Civ?

Ekolite

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Hi everyone, the title says it all really. What are everyone's thoughts on this. I know the team are a little unwilling to add in a new civ butsomeone could make a modmod for them... What should the lizardman civ be? What would make them unique? UUs/UBs? Theme? Mechanics? Alignment? Everyone share their ideas.
 
Personally I think they should have:

-be highly inteligent (not barbarians).
-They should live in Jungle (and Marsh if that ever gets put in).
-Be able to build on jungle / spread jungle / get bonuses from jungle tiles.
-Have a slightly aztec theme.
-Evil allignment
-Powerful Vampiric Priests (as arcane units) that perform sacrifices to their God.
-All units except for the priests have the promotion 'Cold Blood'. This gives them bonuses in warmer terrain. Stops them from being able to become vampires and cannot be fed on by vampires. (One vamp civ is enough).

A new 'Blood' mana type would be cool.
-Cannot be aquired via mana nodes,
-only available to Calabim and Lizardmen (from palace)
-A few unique and cool spells.

What does everone else think?
 
It was discussed about a year ago and no go. I assume Hian the frog is waiting for FfH2 to be complete and then you can make a mini mod with a lizzie civ. I'll gladly help him when the time comes. ;)
 
I suggest you keep on thinking about, but play a lot standard FfH.
This will make it easier to implement the civ (balance, flavour and mechanically) as soon as FfH goes into Ice and all the mechanics and bugs are fixed.
By then, there should be some way to create some more lizzie units and then everyone can be happy. right now i think its not the perfect time to actually start implementing them. but keep the idea and see what happens :)

just my 2cents
 
It's just a bit breaking if a civ is added: the system of 3s and 7s with 3x7=21 civs seems so well-working. Of course one civ could be changed (in a modmod).

(Other examples: 3 alignments, 7 gods of each before Bhall fell
7 religions, 3 of each 3 alignment
21 mana spheres: 1 for each god
21 gods: 1 for each civ)
 
I would think if they were neutral by default, with neutral tendancies, they would be safe to add. However, I would expect an aztec lizardman civ to have lots of evil, death leanings. Definitely when it is ok to try a mod, I'd like to help---definitely an opportunity to add a new god and some unique abilities, if not traits.
 
Cool. I can't mod it myself but I can certainly do lead design of it, I appreciate everyone's offers for help. Maybe whenever people think it's conveniant to add in a new civ we can find someone to do the modding itself. Is it difficult to make a new civ?

Also, I'm aware of the whole 3, 7, 21 thing, that's why it would be a modmod and probably not in the officail FFH.

Still, it's fun to think about it, does anyone else have any ideas for a aztec style lizardman civ? Anything at all, units, traits, whatever.
 
It was discussed about a year ago and no go. I assume Hian the frog is waiting for FfH2 to be complete and then you can make a mini mod with a lizzie civ. I'll gladly help him when the time comes. ;)

Was it dismissed as an idea on its own, or was it primarily dismissed because of 'too many civs'?

Now that we can have up to 40 in a game, it would be easier to have multiple civilizations of barbarians with different traits and units.
 
To collect the ideas I put in earlier threads, and some new ones:

Theme: Aztecian central american jungle, a tip of the hat to the Warhammer universe (but no wholesale copying, because FFH is awesome as original), warrior aristocracy (so pygmies, warriors, elites), templar/religious, urban yet very strong jungle adaption (especially amongst their lower level units---skirmishers/hunters/civillians), probably special jungle farms that use terrace farming that doesn't deforest (so camp-style farming).

possibly a brand new God. pro's, if original its cool. con's, it goes over the 7 religions mark. Khorne (Wh) as the archetype for a new god, with emphasis on blood and chaos, but probably not death (lets leave death for the Mordor inspired AV religion). Probably Body (for blood to feed the blood god), Chaos (bringing death and mutation to the enemies), and Nature (jungle harmony).
Possibly replace the Chaos with Death, but I think the undead should be far removed from the lizmen, though a mummified lich lizard king might be an acceptable hero. Sort of a toss-up, though perhaps replace Chaos/Death with Law, and have a holy (in evil sense) lizardman palidan king as hero; Law feels better than Chaos if there is a tight aristocracy in the lizmen. EDIT: Possibly I'm thinking of Entropy instead of even law though.
New religion would have enslave/sacrifice tied into the 2nd tier tech for the religion. Probably a UB, or new civic would be the special reward tieing into sacrifice/enslaving. Possible enslaving will be a generic promotion to allow other civs to pick it up without having a lizman model as the enslaver.

Specific abilities: definitely a plant new jungle option. jungle under territorial control should cause damage to enemies (representing traps, and carnivorous breeds of vegetation that the lizmen breed).
Enslave enemies (good reason for raids). Sacrifice enemies--fits with aztec theme. So possibly sacrifice enemies to gain temporary boosts in nature (as fertilizer), or body (as blood). Possibly sacrifice acts as ritual, free temporary nodes, or magically speeds up the spread of new jungle (or some combination of that).
Aversion to strip mining. Tendency to elf-style improvements (cottages/plantations exist within the jungle). Improved harvesting from raw jungle. Possibly impossible to make own mines, so perhaps no use of metals?

Unit themes: jungle woodsman, natural poison, special enhanced body poisons (think Ebola). If Chaos-theme, think mutations, especially within the jungle tiles. ability to enslave enemy in aristocracy units. possible lack of spirit/courage outside of jungle/woods terrain. possible cannabalism in skirmish/hunter units. lower units are more amphibian/frog-like, while higher units are lizard like. beast units of giant lizards (komodos) and snakes. possible Naga (snakemen, mystical) allies? Strong melee units, evasive skirmish units. No siege capability other than perhaps through their beasts (as battering rams). Strong healing capacity.

General unit categories:
worker (skink)
settler (lizman, aristocratic)
Skirmisher/scout (skink)
Warrior line (lizman)
early Spartatoi style Lizman
Adept line/ priest line (aristocratic lizman, or naga ally)
Heroes (lizman warrior king, lizman high priest, some sort of
beast /embodiment of their god)
siege line / archer line (beasts)

Unique buildings: Special healers--much more powerful with reagents than standard (reagents will need to occur in jungle tiles then). Beast pens for breeding and modifying beasts (ability to adapt stock beasts to a wide variety of promotion trees). Palace/temples with strong aztec, tiered pyramid theme. Possible unique obelisk, done as a stele (+GP%, +adept XP gain?). Ball court game---similar to Arena UB, but lower XP gain, and much lower chance of death.

Leaders: possibly there is a new trait, Jungle
Agg/jungle/arcane
Barb/jungle/arcane
 
Maybe as a barbarian civ (and I don't mean like the clan or doviello), but otherwise no.
 
They could take Sidar's place as the death-oriented (in this necromancy) civ as death magic isn't what the sidar do, if someone wants to keep the mana-civ-god thing in place
 
Yeah, but the Sidar are just too cool to remove. Also, I don't see the lizardmen as particularly death oriented, they are more choas/nature/water. But some other barbs are death oriented.

If they are implemented, it should just be as part of splitting the barbarian state up into several smaller minor civs (orks, lizzies, undead/demon/apocalypse heroes and followers, animals, human barbs, not sure about dwarf or elven barbs). The Clan and Doviello could be at peace with orkish and human barbs (posibly respectively, but I would prefer both) and Hyborem with the demon/undead/apocalypse ones. No one would be at peace with barbs. My Event (ritual) proposal would probably be making peace(/permanent alliance) with only the demon/undead/apocalypse barbs.
 
Yeah, but the Sidar are just too cool to remove. Also, I don't see the lizardmen as particularly death oriented, they are more choas/nature/water. But some other barbs are death oriented.

If they are necromantic aztecs then they might be a death-civ

(sidar IMO are cool in shadow, not yet, although their hero slaughters grigori)
 
Thanks for your ideas Goodgame.

Loved most of that but,

-I don't want them to be barbarian or associated with barbs.
-Also I'm not sure about the mana choices. To my mind they would be Water, probably Nature, posiblly body or death, maybe law, not too sure about entropy, I don't think Chaos really fits their theme.

Particularly I liked,

-The high priest hero idea.
-Using large animals as siege weapons
-Canabalism, Aztec elite occasionally ate human flesh, this should be limitted to the higher tiers of units, priests, maybe arcane line, maybe.
-Blood God, maybe it could be a cult unique to them instead of an actual religion, we could possibly allow them to adopt a proper religion, maybe strongly leaning towards OO or AV (and have their arcane units to be blood god priests) or we could make them unable to adopt another religion (ala Illians).

By the way, I searched for previous threads about Lizmen and found Hian the Frog's idea, it seemed kinda conflicting to what I really have in mind although I'm very much open to other people's ideas. One thing though, I don't think they should be obsessed with the dragons like Hian seemed to want.

Anyway so, ideas...?
Something to make this civ really unique and different from the current ones.
 
Yeah, but the Sidar are just too cool to remove. Also, I don't see the lizardmen as particularly death oriented, they are more choas/nature/water. But some other barbs are death oriented.

If they are implemented, it should just be as part of splitting the barbarian state up into several smaller minor civs (orks, lizzies, undead/demon/apocalypse heroes and followers, animals, human barbs, not sure about dwarf or elven barbs). The Clan and Doviello could be at peace with orkish and human barbs (posibly respectively, but I would prefer both) and Hyborem with the demon/undead/apocalypse ones. No one would be at peace with barbs. My Event (ritual) proposal would probably be making peace(/permanent alliance) with only the demon/undead/apocalypse barbs.

I agree here, lizards are just too, well, barbaric to have an actual Civ. If someone does do a mod with a civ of them, at least give them the barbarian trait. I think it'd be cool to see lizards riding other reptiles, etc.

Perhaps a T-rex barbarian beast unit like Orthus?

I'd love to see multiple barbarian civs. Could they be implemented like "minor" civilizations (like in some of the scenarios)?
 
Ok, seeing as EVERYONE seems to want this, one of the lizardmen leaders would have the barbarian trait. I think one would be a sort of barbarian raider type. Maybe Raider, Aggressive, Barbarian. The other leader would be more focused on magic / religion. Maybe Spiritual, Arcane. Actually I quite like the idea of the leaders trying to take the civilization in completely different directions.

Also, it should be a playable civ, what's the fun in making a civ you can't play?
 
Aww c'mon, ever see Land of the Lost? They're like the sleestack (sp?). Once a noble race, most have sunk to barbarism, but several elites still feel the original fire and technology of their race.

I would still like lizzies to be barbarians as well as their own civ.

I agree here, lizards are just too, well, barbaric to have an actual Civ. If someone does do a mod with a civ of them, at least give them the barbarian trait. I think it'd be cool to see lizards riding other reptiles, etc.

Perhaps a T-rex barbarian beast unit like Orthus?

I'd love to see multiple barbarian civs. Could they be implemented like "minor" civilizations (like in some of the scenarios)?
 
Yes, that would be absolutely intriguing! Especially as the lizardmen seem to be more independent in-game. As it seems, some of them (Druids) are even associated with Cernunnos-so they are not totally evil... And it is frequently hinted that lizardmen are just allies of the Clan. Are they worshipping Bhall after all? That could be plausible, as they are cold-blooded creatures...

I have played with the idea of a neutral leader of the Clan who is a lizardman druid, but given their peripheral position within the clan (orcs seem to be dominant) and several other factors I think that would hardly fit into the world...

'Now a civ that isn't somehow associated with any of the 21 gods (Cassiel as an archangel of Dagda is included here) would be interesting anyways...

Or maybe they are just being eclectic about their beliefs, worshipping (perhaps) several of the angels as a pantheon/pandaemonium...
 
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