Does FFH need a Lizardman Civ?

Does anyone have a good idea of what the two palaces should look like? I think they need distinct palaces and can't seem to find lizard civ palaces under google. ;)

At the moment they're Aztec-ish in my head. I was contemplating nicking the Pyramid/Ziggurat style buildings from Vanilla...

Kinda like this, though more "stone and gold" than "white and red".
 
So both have evolved with the same sort of Palace? Anything strikingly different? Sacrifice altars, pools, ect?
 
So both have evolved with the same sort of Palace? Anything strikingly different? Sacrifice altars, pools, ect?

Originally I'd was thinking that way, though having read through Hian's notes in the e-mail you sent, I'm starting to think they could be differentiated at the "building style" level as well. I've definitely got a "Sacrifice them on top of the ziggurat on an big altar" image in my head for the Cualli, but the Mazatl could well be more closely linked to the earth (Kilmorph link) and live more simply - albeit with an ample supply of gold to build with.

Spawning pools and such would probably be present in both cases though and they'd share much of the same iconography (as they share a common language and history). I think the Cualli would pretty much have claimed dominion over the ruins of old lizardman settlements after the Age of Ice, whilst perhaps the Mazatl are starting from scratch.
 
Vehem,

Why copying an already existing civ ? I mean i disagree that copying the Aztec is a good idea.

My idea was quite simple and closer the FfH2 way of thinking. We can have two Lizzie civs, one as Kol.7 asked for, and one as woodelf and me were looking for. They should be linked to two "gods" if you want but why with some already used by others civs ? There are 21 angels, and many are "unused".
I prefer what we already talked about: a neutral Lizzie civ with no real god but a workship of an egg or even a wyvern (i like this idea) and an evil one. This last one should be linked to an evil angel of course.

About the title changes: good job. It's great. But will you also code something about their specific value for the Lizzies ? I mean: what are their initial bonus ? What are their bonus for Lizzies ? Can they be improved ? If yes, how ? Will you add a special ressource ? (Beware, this will need some important changes in case of).

About the Palace: the evil lizzies couls have one looking like a pyramids temple if you want. About the neutral lizzies, i was looking for a palace looking like either an egg, either a cave in a hill/mountain (to place the wyvern/dragon).

UB: the granary and/or smokehouse could be replaced by a nursery. In that case, the food stock bonus should be twice it is actually with maybe another +1 health bonus.

UU: Woodelf and me were looking for a Bowpipe archer (right name in english ?). This unit should replace the archer or longbowman (we should discuss on this all together). Bonuses could be: poison attack, movement,etc.

Nothing is really closed in my mind but what i dislike is copying an earth like civ. We should avoid this. It's a fantasy mod. Let's be imaginative.

Hian the Frog.
 
My original plan was for the palace to use reskinned spiral minaret graphics, the spire where their spectral leader (who was a wandering/fallen/rebelling angel of aeron btw) lives, but now I dont know if your still doing that. Did you see the pic I found as a possible LH? You don't have to use it but thats what I had in mind. (the ghost one btw, not the other one) Also, to be frank, I was never particularly in love with the worshipping dragons idea but I think it may well be better to use their ''idols'' (dragon and fallen angel) as their religion and not gods that already have a civ. Also, Hian, the idea isn't to copy the aztecs, but to use them as inspiration. The buildings dont have to be aztec style, The aztec part was the sacrificing/canibalism etc IMO.
 
This thread has a few possibilities. Bag End might look pretty neat under swamp terrain for the earthy feel (ought to use entire city-set for that though, but Imladris should be amazing. The Dwarf Hall could be nice for a "low tech" feel, and the Atlantian Observer could pass decently for Sacraficial Altar type thing.

Mt. Olympus could be nifty if you go wtih the whole "Egg Hatchery" thing, and the Celestial Fortress just feels downright evil.

Finally, the Amber College is pretty sweet, but so far I haven't been able to get it to show the skin properly when I tried to use it.
 
From experience putting hills, mounds, ect in for buildings doesn't look right. Maybe a ruined pyramid with a nest/eggs on top? Hard to say.

I have some decent stuff started, but haven't had time to work on it today.
 
Copying or using the Aztec as inspiration is the same. You want to use something already existing. Note that if Aztec sacrified many people (mostly captured warriors) they weren't really cannibals.

What is dislike more is the fact that Lizardmen are also seen as "evil". Can't they be like any race ? Sometimes evil, sometimes good, happy to live and to grow with their own ways of living, etc. Whereas Elves are mostly seen as a "good" race, Lizardmen are often evil. I disagree there. Making them a bloody race is to common.
IMO, they should be the race of Erebus the best adapted to live in swampy lands and jungles.

Hian the frog.
 
Aztecs are belived to have practised canibalism, the eating of human flesh, although it is not know as to what degree. Most civs in FFH are ''sometimes evil, sometimes good'' there would be little difference here. They are evil because their leader is evil, although on the other hand he did save them from certain death and large parts of their ''evil'' were only done out of necessity, the eating of the rotting orcs, cannibalism, for food as the bodies poisonned their rice paddies and rivers, the sacrificing is along the same lines and is essentially feeding their god, I did post a back-story. Did you read it?

Besides, IMO it is more flavoursome and interesting for a civ to have a troubled past and a more blurred stance, they are evil because they need to be in order to survive. Or did need to anyway, nowaday its probably just part of their culture.
 
Copying or using the Aztec as inspiration is the same. You want to use something already existing. Note that if Aztec sacrified many people (mostly captured warriors) they weren't really cannibals.

What is dislike more is the fact that Lizardmen are also seen as "evil". Can't they be like any race ? Sometimes evil, sometimes good, happy to live and to grow with their own ways of living, etc. Whereas Elves are mostly seen as a "good" race, Lizardmen are often evil. I disagree there. Making them a bloody race is to common.
IMO, they should be the race of Erebus the best adapted to live in swampy lands and jungles.

Hian the frog.

The way things are going at the moment, they're going to be both. One side reflects the "good" lizardmen, the other the "evil" lizardmen. Rather than represent the ambivalence of the race by making them neutral, I decided to show examples of the two extremes. Of course, as with everything in Fall from Heaven, "Good and Evil" are relative to their contributions to Armageddon.

The Evil Civ - Cualli - are the ones who are drawing inspiration from the Aztec theme. I'm not too concerned about drawing from an unoriginal source, so long as it *is* original to Erebus. As it stands, there is nothing quite like that in FfH and whilst I don't want to follow the Aztec history as gospel, I'm quite happy to take some aspects of their society and invent others. Besides which, I must admit I don't really know enough about them to do a very good job of copying it - so whatever I come up with will be at least partially a work of fiction. So far as the building styles go however, I would like some partially ruined, Meso-American style Pyramids, alongside towers etc.

The Good Civ - Mazatl - are the ones who know about the Godswar and are opposed to Armageddon (the Cualli know about the war, but don't care). I'm open to suggestions for how their society is organized, though they'll eventually be bringing in their "Wyvern" hero (inspired by "The Worm" - though it is still partially Draconic - though with 4 limbs not 6 as Wyverns have no fore-limbs). I've actually adapted the model for that already, and it turned out quite well. As the great beasts of the Age of Dragons served specific gods, I decided to make the Wyvern a servant of one too (a lesser servant than the great-dragons though) and for the moment that is Kilmorph. The Mazatl don't worship Kilmorph as such, they've got their own name for what she represents and a religion based around that. Their "god" doesn't really exist (as Kael once said - many tribes/cults worship things that don't exist/aren't gods) but is close enough to Kilmorph that she guides them to an extent. The same is true for the lizard-god version of Oghma.

There are a couple of things that I've dropped from the initial storylines however. For the Cualli - the "spectre-angel-of-aeron" would break the compact unless he was willing to give up his power as Cassiel did. I can't see an evil-angel being willing to do that. Also, I like to keep the changes to the major-storyline of FfH as minor as I can, so mortal servants of a "lizard-god similar to Aeron" (albeit mortals of great power) were chosen for the leader and the hero.

The other main thing I haven't included are the references to "The Egg". I like the idea of having a hero unit from ages past returning to take part in the battle against Armageddon, but the mechanic of "defending the egg" doesn't really seem necessary to tell that part of the story.

In any case - whilst I've tried to draw on as many of the ideas here as possible whilst working on them, I can guarantee that neither race will turn out quite how either of you had in mind at the start. Hopefully they'll be recognizable as something you help to shape though - and will be fun to play in their own right.


EDIT: And after reading back over that, I've come to the conclusion that I *really* need to sort out names for the "Lizard gods". I'm getting mighty tired of saying "Lizard-version-of-Kilmorph" :D
 
My reasoning for the angel was that he had been wandering for millenia, before the compact was even made. He possibly took a heavy beating in the gods war or possibly has become very weak by other means and the sacrifices are making him stronger. Of course he may not be an angel of aeron at all, he might just be a spectre of something. Or he might have fallen but gains power from the sacrifice rituals. Also, you have to remember that he is not *necessarilly* evil, he is weak and needed to survive, he found the lizzies who were starving and desperately trying to survive(in much the same situation as he was) and now they're helping each other survive and become strong, what they are doing is evil but mostly they do it just to survive. There are loads of potential reasons why he's there,

I created the story with the compact and the backstory of erebus in mind.

And the fact that he's there gives them a bit more depth and interest.
 
Right - flag time.

What I need is a flag for each of the two civilizations. It's not a particularly complex thing, but for the moment I'm lacking inspiration for them so I thought I'd turn them over to anyone who fancies a shot at them.

The one requirement is that you only get 2 colours. And one of those colours cannot be like any existing Civ colour (which makes it a whole lot trickier).

Alternatively, if you produce a design in Black and White, I'll sort the rest out. The size should be 128x128, but try to stay away from the edges as they get a little distorted on the flag.

As an example - this is how the Archos flag started off;
 

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Vehem,

Quite interesting ideas.
What i really wish is to have something linked to the "Egg". Maybe, their wyvern can be the replacement of a dragon. You can even remove "hte protection" of the Egg. It was just an idea.

About the flags: In my mind, the good civ could use a flag showing an egg. This one could be adapted from the egg of the movies Alien. Again, it's just a suggestion.

Comment please.

Hian the Frog.
 
Most/all dialogue can have reference to the Egg. The bannor having an egg would be cool as well. Maybe a small dragon/wyvern with it's tail wrapped around an egg?
 
This news just in. A Priest of Kalshekk and a Priest of Omorr work together to defeat an evil priest of Agruonn.

PriestWar.jpg




And also, is this a sufficient difference to be able to see the borders? Mazatl next to Perpentach - "Goldenrod" vs "Dark Yellow"

Teamcolors.jpg
 
I can tell the difference when they are side-by-side, but if I ever saw them alone, probably not so much so.

But then again, I don't remember which color is who anyway and always have to mouse-over so it'll tell me. Then try to remember which leader is for which civ :)
 
I can tell the difference when they are side-by-side, but if I ever saw them alone, probably not so much so.

But then again, I don't remember which color is who anyway and always have to mouse-over so it'll tell me. Then try to remember which leader is for which civ :)

Good enough I guess - I'll leave it as is for now, as the team color works well with the flag. Also, some of you may be pleased to know that I "egged the flag".
 
Beautiful flags Psychic Llamas. I like some of them. One of them may be used as it is or a bit reworked for the evil lizzies.

Guys,

What about the UU ? Should we use a bowpipe ? IMO, this unit is well adapted to the lizzies. If yes, what about its specific bonuses ? To replace what ?
My idea was to replace either the archer either the longbowman. I prefer the longbowman.
 
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