Does socialism work?

[Alpha Killer II]

Wrong on many different counts. In North Korea you have 99.9% of people on the very bottom, they are called the 'common people'. If given a chance to leave peacefully, I bet only .1% of the population would remain, those closest to Kim Jong Il.

No, u ask a average North Korean citizen, they LOVE the country, its the ameriKKKan imperiali$ts that force trade embargos against North Korea thus leaving North Korea to go into starvations, but despite all these setbacks, North Korea is known by many (and by "many" I mean people that are smarter than a average brainwashed ameriKKKan citizen) to be a "Socialist Utopia"

If the government wanted us to be defenseless, they would not allow guns to be sold at Wal* Mart and would give us all the heroin we wanted for free just to make us not have a care in the world. When we finally do come around, we would be without our weapons to defend ourselves.

What the hell does heroin has to do with safety? Hell Tobacco is just as addictive as all those other drugs
and have u ever heard of a small idea called "Gun Control"?

I doubt you have ever heard of such a thing as 'demand'.

Supply and Demand, the backbone of a capitalist society

This is one giant mess. Racism being blamed on capitalism? Please.

Socialism frowns on stereotyping, Russia had free voting rights for women, blacks and anyone of any origin at 1927, AmeriKKKa was at 1967

Plastic surgery? I say God Bless fake boobies too!

Reminds me of a quote from Chairman Mao...
"Inner beauty is much more valuable than outward appearance"
please, get rid of ur bourgeois way of thinking

Starvation?! Don't make me laugh. Go to DPRK and tell me if you are able to feed yourself.

IT ISNT NORTH KOREA'S FAULT!, Its the AmeriKKKa Imperialists, they sign trade embargos with other countries against North Korea, thus making North Korea isolate itself from the rest of the world, why havent u heard about these embargos? If u guessed that the Capitalists selected in "The Few" own the Media, DING DING DING ur correct!

 

[Traitorfish]

#1- Capitalism will ALWAYS need money, thus putting a group of people at the very bottom, leading to a possible revolt that will lead to revolution

Couple of things- Firstly, the creation of an underclass is often not so much because of exploitation, but a tool to keep the working and middle classes in line. The miserable conditions of the underclass serve as a threat to those would oppose the system, a living hell which dissidents and non-conformists are condemned to.
Secondly, the underclass has very little tendency towards revolution, being far more concerned with mere survival. Revolution comes from the working and middle classes, as soon as they stop worrying about the underclass and start worrying about the upper class.

And it's important to remember that this is not a situation exclusive to capitalism, nor is inevitably the result of a capitalist system.

North Korea is known by many to be a "Socialist Utopia"

By who? The quasi-religous despotism of North Korea is closer to the sort of system used in ancient Egyt than any form of modern socialism, despite what shallowing trappings of communist ideology the government may maintain.
The Korean system is almost a parody of dictatorship, so extreme and ridiculous is it.

You're right, it's not nice of me to pick on retards.

That's a rather feeble ad hominem attack, I must say. Pity that's not against the forum rules... However, flaming quite certainly is, and we have a rather clear case of that here.

 

[Godwynn]

No, u ask a average North Korean citizen, they LOVE the country, its the ameriKKKan imperiali$ts that force trade embargos against North Korea thus leaving North Korea to go into starvations, but despite all these setbacks, North Korea is known by many (and by "many" I mean people that are smarter than a average brainwashed ameriKKKan citizen) to be a "Socialist Utopia"

First of all, saying ameriKKKan imperiali$ts makes you look like an idiot, but since you are that is perfectly fine by me.

Have you ever asked an average North Korean citizen? Did you happen to see this from a 'source' from within the DPRK government? If that is a socialist utopia, you can have it.

For a 'utopia' with big government, look to Scandinavia.

What the hell does heroin has to do with safety? Hell Tobacco is just as addictive as all those other drugs
and have u ever heard of a small idea called "Gun Control"?

Heroin is the most addictive narcotic out there. You may not have heard that in the D.A.R.E. class you had yesterday.

'Gun Control', you mean disarming the populace so only the military, which is ruled by the AMERIKKKAN CAPITALI$TS WILL ONLY HAVE THE GUNS?!? Surely you would be against that.

Supply and Demand, the backbone of a capitalist society

Congratulations! Now what don't you understand about mining diamonds?

Socialism frowns on stereotyping, Russia had free voting rights for women, blacks and anyone of any origin at 1927, AmeriKKKa was at 1967

AmeriKKKa had voting rights for women before the Soviet Union.

How long did those elections last in the USSR?

Reminds me of a quote from Chairman Mao...
"Inner beauty is much more valuable than outward appearance"
please, get rid of ur bourgeois way of thinking

Please, get rid of your possibly adolescent, possibly young child way of thinking. Oh look, Green Day hates Bush! I will too! Please, I was thinking even we could agree to like boobies.

IT ISNT NORTH KOREA'S FAULT!, Its the AmeriKKKa Imperialists, they sign trade embargos with other countries against North Korea, thus making North Korea isolate itself from the rest of the world, why havent u heard about these embargos? If u guessed that the Capitalists selected in "The Few" own the Media, DING DING DING ur correct!

An embargo is a double edged sword. Why aren't we in America without electricity or food like North Korea?

Couple of things- Firstly, the creation of an underclass is often not so much because of exploitation, but a tool to keep the working and middle classes in line. The miserable conditions of the underclass serve as a threat to those would oppose the system, a living hell which dissidents and non-conformists are condemned to.
Secondly, the underclass has very little tendency towards revolution, being far more concerned with mere survival. Revolution comes from the working and middle classes, as soon as they stop worrying about the underclass and start worrying about the upper class.

I would much rather be in a lower class in America than in an upper class in Zimbabwe.

And it's important to remember that this is not a situation exclusive to capitalism, nor is inevitably the result of a capitalist system.

I agree with this statement.

That's a rather feeble ad hominem attack, I must say. Pity that's not against the forum rules... However, flaming quite certainly is, and we have a rather clear case of that here.

I bet you think using Latin words and logical fallacies makes you smarter and impresses the ladies.

If you would actually take some time to research what that means, and not just what you heard flipping through the channels on Television, you would know what it is an argument against the person. I am not attacking his character to devalue his argument. I am flat out calling him an idiot.

Toodles.

 

[Traitorfish]

I would much rather be in a lower class in America than in an upper class in Zimbabwe.

That doesn't effect my point.

I agree with this statement.

Thank you.

I bet you think using Latin words and logical fallacies makes you smarter and impresses the ladies.

Again, ad hominem.

If you would actually take some time to research what that means, and not just what you heard flipping through the channels on Television...

Yet again, ad hominem.

...you would know what it is an argument against the person. I am not attacking his character to devalue his argument. I am flat out calling him an idiot.

Firstly, I was aware of that.
Secondly, you were asserting that he was a "******" in a way which seemed to imply that this invalidate his argument, thereby constituting an ad hominem argument.

And so does...

Please, get rid of your possibly adolescent, possibly young child way of thinking. Oh look, Green Day hates Bush! I will too!

That's four ad hominem arguments so far. I expect another will be along soon.

 

[Godwynn]

Firstly, I was aware of that.

You are not aware of that, otherwise you wouldn't be copy and pasting 'ZOMG AD HOMINEM!11two'.

Calling Alpha Killer II a ****** is not an Ad Hominem attack, it is an insult. They are not the same.

That's four ad hominem arguments so far. I expect another will be along soon.

Here, I will give you an example of an Ad Hominem attack.

Alpha Killer II is a dumbass, therefore Socialism sucks.

Since you seem very well educated in the area of logical fallacies, can you tell what other ones apply to that statement?

 

[Alpha Killer II]

Have you ever asked an average North Korean citizen? Did you happen to see this from a 'source' from within the DPRK government? If that is a socialist utopia, you can have it.

Actually it was a series of secret interviews

'Gun Control', you mean disarming the populace so only the military, which is ruled by the AMERIKKKAN CAPITALI$TS WILL ONLY HAVE THE GUNS?!? Surely you would be against that.

Actually it would be against AMERIKKKAN constitution, which will be obslete with the creation of the American Union

Spoiler :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Union

How long did those elections last in the USSR?

"...the people that vote dont decide ANYTHING, the people that count the votes decide EVERYTHING" -- Joseph Stalin

An embargo is a double edged sword. Why aren't we in America without electricity or food like North Korea?

Due to some recent changes, Russia and some other countries are helping North Korea with its food issue, and the "Power Problem" is once a day for drills if the Americans (He look, I didnt say it with a KKK, kudos?) attack again

If you would actually take some time to research what that means, and not just what you heard flipping through the channels on Television, you would know what it is an argument against the person. I am not attacking his character to devalue his argument

I am not flipping through channels on Television, I am being informed by private sources

Alpha Killer II is a dumbass, therefore Socialism sucks.

Im really trying to not stoop to your level, but it's harder than it sounds

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Actually it was a series of secret interviews

[citation needed]

Actually it would be against AMERIKKKAN constitution, which will be obslete with the creation of the American Union

Good luck with that.

"...the people that vote dont decide ANYTHING, the people that count the votes decide EVERYTHING" -- Joseph Stalin

So, you affirm his statement? You DO realize you've just contradicted yourself..?

Due to some recent changes, Russia and some other countries are helping North Korea with its food issue, and the "Power Problem" is once a day for drills if the Americans (He look, I didnt say it with a KKK, kudos?) attack again

What U.S. attacks? Have there been covert operations we don't know about? These 'recent changes' you mention are probably aid packages, owing to recent flooding.

I am not flipping through channels on Television, I am being informed by private sources

[citation needed]

 

[slightlymarxist]

What a surprise, a discussion of socialism turns into flame-fest...

On topic: Does socialism work?

I'd like to bring up the question of communism vs. social democracy as concepts. In europe at least, socialist movements started as trade unions of workers struggling to improve their working conditions. Not, as later became the case in Russia, a group of party intellectuals and paramilitary goons seizing control and install a dicatorship and THEN create a "socialist" society starting from top to bottom (I'll call that kind of thing "leninist" from now on since it has precious little to do in practice with Marx' idea of worker's control of factories). Of course, Russia (and China, and Vietnam, and Korea...) are special since it was not a developed industrial-capitalist society in the first place. It was closer to a feudal monarchy succeded by another kind of monarchy, only more interested in modernization.

Anyway, in europe, the Marxist trade unions (and I'm simplifying here) split into "communist" and "social democratic" after a while, the difference being "communist" meant "revolutionary" (organising workers to physically take over factories and running them themselves, without approval of anyone but the hungry masses) and "social democratic" meant "reformist" (trying to win public elections, getting into parliaments and changing things from there). Those who remained communist (european marxist, not leninist) claimed that socialists who gets into bourgeoise parliaments eventually become bourgeoise themselves.

And... a hundred years later, they were right. Contemporary social democratic parties and governments in europe are "welfare liberal" at best. They're not trying to achieve a socialist society anymore.

My own thought on the matter is that as long as we have international anarchy through sovereign states fighting for power, be it economical or military, socialism will not be allowed to work. Socialist countries will continue be steamrolled by militarily aggressive, imperalist-capitalist countries such as USA and USSR (yes, really. No european marxist worth it's salt would consider what happened in Russia a "class struggle").

 

[West 36]

I don't believe Alpha Killer is a lefty, because from what I've seen, he's more of a.. idk, words can't describe. Actually they can, I just hate infractions.
1. Stalinists and Maoists, both, to me, are psuedo-commies, because something about killing millions and bringing power all to oneself just seems different then the true commies I've met.
2. If you're defending Kim Jong Il, I can't take you seriously. Whats with authortarian communism?!
3. If you're voting Ron Paul, and say your a communist, I want to challenge you to a duel, then shoot you in the back as you take your paces, because it goes against what you believe in on so many levels. How can voting a libertarian (in a capitalist society, anyway) bring about the change you want?
I'm sorry Alpha Killer, but you just don't seem to understand, well, the world, politics, or yourself.
or maybe its that darned rap music

signed,
A Socialist.



Edit: @ slightly marxist, I'd say you're correct, but I don't understand what you mean by 'international anarchy.' Nice analysis. Now, as a Swede, and being... slightly marxist, how do you feel about the 'welfare state' compared to you're own interests, and what is left to be done?

 

[slightlymarxist]

@ slightly marxist, I'd say you're correct, but I don't understand what you mean by 'international anarchy.' Nice analysis. Now, as a Swede, and being... slightly marxist, how do you feel about the 'welfare state' compared to you're own interests, and what is left to be done?

What I mean by "International Anarchy":

Lack of world government, or rather, the existence of sovereign states interested in expanding their power on the expense of other sovereign states, through economy or raw military might. I realise this is an extremely touchy issue, but it's been around in socialist theory since the beginning. "Le internationale" - the working classes around the world - would unite against their common enemy, Capitalist Imperalist states who send their sons to war and let their families starve. This is also a reason why it's a mistake to connect socialism with nationalism or even state-building.

To achieve a socialist society where people stop fighting each other but instead work together towards a common goal, you would need a global revolution and a world "government" (or, uh, non-government, Marx gets a bit vague on practical implementation here and that's one reason why socialist groups tends to fracture and infight - they can't agree on method!).

I don't think a socialist (non-)government can be achieved today. Why? I'm afraid of Americans! (David Bowie: "uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh, Johnny's an American") BUT... I'm even more afraid of Muslim extremists (tbh, these were created by the US, though it doesn't really matter anymore), Chinese powerbrokers, the emergence of a new Russian superpower (they still have the Bomb, remember?) and as long as we're afraid of each other we can't cooperate to create anything really socialist. And everyone's dependent (at least seemingly) by American goodwill. On the other hand, there's globalisation and environmental destruction which might simply force everyone to cooperate in the long run. We'll see what happens when US economy breaks down, which I think will happen pretty soon (in our lifetime) if they continue to spend this much money on war.



Regarding welfare states and what needs to be done:

I dunno. For me personally? As a Swede, and yes I'm being nationalistic here, n the short term I'm in favor of nationalizing our industry (as long as USA refrains from bombing/sanctioning us for it, like they did with Chile), so that we can prevent our corporations (who are global) from moving production overseas. I'm not sure how we would go about doing this, and I realize of course it's a totally selfish thing to do.

Second, I'd like to see a portion of taxpayer money to go into public investments, creating more state-controlled "companies", especially in the area of infrastructure. It's not a great solution, but it's better than having a bunch of privately owned companies running things with "profit" rather than "responsibility" as their primary goal. Again, I know this doesn't rhyme well with state-less marxist theory, but that is what I would vote for today in all honesty. Essentially a corporative, nationalized industry that allows free enterprise on a certain level.

 

[luiz]

yes, really. No european marxist worth it's salt would consider what happened in Russia a "class struggle".

Really?

I was under the impression that european marxists overwhelmingly supported the Soviet Union, including under Stalin's rule. I was under the impression that they always turned to Moscow for guidance, with the exception of small splinter groups who were always marginalised.

Don't rewrite history. European marxists, for the most part, behaved like Moscow's dogs.

 

[LightSpectra]

No, u ask a average North Korean citizen, they LOVE the country

Disgusting. Tell the 1,600,000 families shattered by Kim Il Sung's purges and the other 10 million that live in dirt poverty that they live in a utopia. I dare you.

I'm even more sickened by whatever country you live in for giving you an education so poor that you think North Korea has an upstanding government.

 

[Alpha Killer II]

1. Stalinists and Maoists, both, to me, are psuedo-commies, because something about killing millions and bringing power all to oneself just seems different then the true commies I've met.

I am not full Stalinist/full Maoist, I believe in some beliefs of Maoism (which is actually Marxism and Leninism put together) and I believe in some beliefs of Stalinism

I am not saying I am just going to kill a bunch of random people for no apparent reason, when Stalin said "The Death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic" he said that at the start of the 5 year plan, which basically means "What needs to be done is what needs to be done". And Stalin had a reason for every single person he killed, I will give you details if you want.
Putting myself into power is not part of this equation, putting a Socialist World into power is my true goal, but I am also trying to influence people to rebel against their current countries and look at things my way though.

2. If you're defending Kim Jong Il, I can't take you seriously. Whats with authortarian communism?!

#1- I think you misspelled authoritarian
#2- What exactly are you saying there?

3. If you're voting Ron Paul, and say your a communist, I want to challenge you to a duel, then shoot you in the back as you take your paces, because it goes against what you believe in on so many levels. How can voting a libertarian (in a capitalist society, anyway) bring about the change you want?

I am only voting Ron Paul for the reason that he will bring down the Federal Bank, thus destroying the path to a Totalitarian Capitalist World, thus leading to a America with Integrity, but he doesn't know is that after destroying the Federal Bank, we (The People) will be able to rebel against America w/o fear of the totalitarian elements, but I am afraid it is to late, for that the "Amero" (The New American Union Currency, I am not sure I spelled that right) is going to be part of our currency in late 2007, which will be proof that the American Union is in power, but I also wont be surprised if Ron Paul gets assassinated...
But the Federal Bank/Government WANTS you voting for Hillary Clinton, she is been seen on television more than anyone else I have seen, hell, I only saw Ron Paul's face on TV once, but never heard him talk on TV, the Government/Federal Bank is privatizing the media so that we will vote for Hillary Clinton, let me show a example in the past where this happened...
1996, Russia-- The Communist Party was one of the biggest most leading party in Russia, but then Capitalist Russia privatize the media, their only subject was YELTSIN, YELTSIN and YELTSIN, nothing else, The Russian law promised every party to have AT LEAST 15 minutes of publicity, but the Communists didnt get their 15 minutes... and Yeltsin the election wins with only +3%

or maybe its that darned rap music

Dont judge me by the music I like, I was born to like Urban-based music, it was the only good songs on the radio when I was growing up, but tell me, if Im a Socialist/Communist, what sort of music am I supposed to like? I thought Socialism was against stereotyping, but yet I see even Socialists judge me by the music I like, but there is such thing as Rap with a Revolutionary Message...
Such as Ice Cube's "@#$% the Police" and ect.
But here is a example based on what is happening NOW (give or take a few years)

Spoiler :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tD5WlQ54Sg0
PS: It is about 9/11, America, Osama, Ect. ect. ect.
PPS: If you decide to turn away from this due to the artists of this song, dont judge the artists, try actually LISTENING to it first...

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

I am not full Stalinist/full Maoist, I believe in some beliefs of Maoism (which is actually Marxism and Leninism put together) and I believe in some beliefs of Stalinism

I'm starting to get the feeling that all you know (or think you know) about Mao comes from his Little Red Book.

Might I suggest a BIG Red Book?
www.amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Chang/dp/0679422714

...when Stalin said "The Death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic" he said that at the start of the 5 year plan, which basically means "What needs to be done is what needs to be done". And Stalin had a reason for every single person he killed, I will give you details if you want.

Please. Explain to us how the, as you seem to be implying, regulated deaths of his own citizenry in projects that accomplished so little was supposed to make the Soviet Union great. Yes, Soviet industrial power was strengthened, but with appalling inefficiency.

Are you familiar with the Windmill in Animal Farm?

Putting myself into power is not part of this equation, putting a Socialist World into power is my true goal, but I am also trying to influence people to rebel against their current countries and look at things my way though.

Yet you do not deny you would accept leadership..? And despite your advocation for the lower classes through socialism, you would not tolerate these same lower classes achieving societal change through their own methods?

I am only voting Ron Paul for the reason that he will bring down the Federal Bank...

And when the American economy collapses and anarchy reigns supreme, who will rise to lead the people out of the mess? Crafty individuals who retain enough power to subjugate the revolutionaries. The positions will then fall back into their previous pattern.

This cycle is discussed in Professor Ravi Batra's book, The Great Depression of 1990. The important part can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Batra#Social_evolution

...the Government/Federal Bank is privatizing the media so that we will vote for Hillary Clinton...

Clinton has so much airtime because she publicizes herself that much more; there is no grand conspiracy. And if privatization of the media is your concern, it's Rupert Murdoch you should be worrying about.

1996, Russia-- The Communist Party was one of the biggest most leading party in Russia, but then Capitalist Russia privatize the media, their only subject was YELTSIN, YELTSIN and YELTSIN, nothing else, The Russian law promised every party to have AT LEAST 15 minutes of publicity, but the Communists didnt get their 15 minutes... and Yeltsin the election wins with only +3%

One of the few statements I can believe. Good job!

Bear in mind, however, that the Soviet Union collapsed due to an economic cave-in. Privatization was seen as a means to rebuild a destroyed economy. So of course the big Russian businessmen were eager to support Yeltsin.

 

[Whomp]

Moderator Action: This thread has descended rapidly. Closed.