Does Stalin really belong in the game?

[MrPopov]

so are WW2 movies and television shows (like Band of Brothers) illegal in Germany? I've wondered about that because I see people post that Hitler and Nazi refrences in media are illegal in Germany.

 

[raigainousa]

so are WW2 movies and television shows (like Band of Brothers) illegal in Germany? I've wondered about that because I see people post that Hitler and Nazi refrences in media are illegal in Germany.

No, I think it desn't, as long as it doesn't glorify Hitler and the Nazis.

If the thread keeps going in such an inane and, in some cases, offensive direction I'd advise locking it...

Go, go, go!!!

 

[Luckystrike77]

Of course do the most influencial and important leaders of the 20th century belong to the game, like Stalin and Mao. Lincoln (the century before) and De Gaulle is nothing compared to those two guys. Stalin and Mao has been with us from the first game of CIv as well, so they are a part of the great traditions of the Civ-game.

When it comes to Hitler he was at least as influencial and important as Stalin, but because of the jew-subject he is extremely political uncorrect these days. I guess it will take a few generations of Civ before they let him in. Perhaps when all the people that experienced WW2 is dead. In the future we can't continue neglecting the importance Nazism/fascism had on history in the 20th century.

I saw a thing on the history channel that hitler and stalin had a lot of child abuse. I heard one time, hitlers father beat him so bad, his urine had blood. (and I'm not saying any of this makes it ok for all the horrible things he said and did)

Well, it wasnt so unusual giving children a good beating those days if they did something they where not allowed to do. It was seen upon as a part of building character. They grew up in the 1890's remember.......

Plenty of 12th/13th century rulers were as cruel as Genghis. It was the standard of the day. He did manage to conquer more land than all of them combined though, so he had more cities to raze, etc.

Hitler, on the other hand, had all the benefits of civilization, of culture, of christianity. He didn't grow up in a cruel nomad world, he grew up in 20th century Vienna! Hitler knew right from wrong per modern morals and ethics, and yet he chose to kill people in a most abominable way. Horrible as it is, starving millions of villagers opposing your rule is not as perverse as murdering millions of helpless victims in gas chambers. Hitler was so twisted he actually jeopardized Germany's wartime railroad capacity in order to kill more helpless victims - compare to Stalin who relocated people to Siberia out of fear they'll collaborate with the Nazi invaders. Not exactly the same.

Stalin had a country a magnitude more unruly and uncivilized than Germany/Austria, wracked with deep social and political turmoil long before he came to power. Stalin had it rough in tzarist dungeons, civil war, backstabbing communist buddies. Hitler had...what? Six million Jews, most of them as civil and educated as Einstein was.

Well, Russia has never laid ther tatar past completely behind, so please feel free making that an excuse for Stalin. But I think it's very arrogant/ignorant not looking at the mechanisms behind the rise of nazism with the same aspect of analyzis. Remember that National-socialism was a revolutionary movement too. They (or Hitler himself, not the SA-leaders) just decided to take the democratical path to power after the failed march to Berlin from Munich in 1923. Hitler and other nazis had to go to prison.

Germans feared marxism and stalinism, it was a real threat from inside their own country (socialist revolution), but also from the large Soviet-Russia with it's huge military force. Germany was limited to an army of 100.000 men. They felt humiliated after the Great War, and their economy had it's problems in the early 20's and 30's. The weak Weimar republic also led to hatred against democrazy and the weakness of its decission making. It was a real feeling that the democratical parties was only crawling for the western powers, capitalism (the jew) and socialism etc..... It was a feeling that the old german values and greatness was being teared apart just in less then a generation. And counter reactions is often coming up in situations like these.

 

[Napalm102]

Germany was limited to an army of 100.000 men.

Wait, that can't be right. Germans lost 1.5 Million troops under Stalingrad alone. Granted not all of them were German, but majority were. Or do you mean before WWII?

 

[Luckystrike77]

Wait, that can't be right. Germans lost 1.5 Million troops under Stalingrad alone. Granted not all of them were German, but majority were. Or do you mean before WWII?

Yep, after the Versailles treaty of 1919. The Weimar republic in Germany respected it, but it was unpopular among the people of course. During Hitler's reign the germans ignored the treaty, first secretly, then more and more openly.

The main terms of the Versailles Treaty were:

(1) the surrender of all German colonies as League of Nations mandates;

(2) the return of Alsace-Lorraine to France;

(3) cession of Eupen-Malmedy to Belgium, Memel to Lithuania, the Hultschin district to Czechoslovakia,

(4) Poznania, parts of East Prussia and Upper Silesia to Poland;

(5) Danzig to become a free city;

(6) plebiscites to be held in northern Schleswig to settle the Danish-German frontier;

(7) occupation and special status for the Saar under French control;

(8) demilitarization and a fifteen-year occupation of the Rhineland;

(9) German reparations of £6,600 million;

(10) a ban on the union of Germany and Austria;

(11) an acceptance of Germany's guilt in causing the war;

(11) provision for the trial of the former Kaiser and other war leaders;

(12) limitation of Germany's army to 100,000 men with no conscription, no tanks, no heavy artillery, no poison-gas supplies, no aircraft and no airships;

(13) the limitation of the German Navy to vessels under 100,000 tons, with no submarines;

It was a harsh peace for a people not feeling beaten. In the army, and among many germans, they saw this peace as a part of internal domestic treason from democrats and socialists.

 

[Napalm102]

(12) limitation of Germany's army to 100,000 men with no conscription, no tanks, no heavy artillery, no poison-gas supplies, no aircraft and no airships;

(13) the limitation of the German Navy to vessels under 100,000 tons, with no submarines;

Rofl, I guess there were no international observers at that time...or maybe nobody cared. So in less then 19 years German were able to turn their army into a world conquering jugernaut.

I don't care what anyone says, that kind of feat deserves respect. Ofcourse Russians pulled the same feat, while fighting off the said army, but still.

 

[Luckystrike77]

Rofl, I guess there were no international observers at that time...or maybe nobody cared. So in less then 19 years German were able to turn their army into a world conquering jugernaut.

I don't care what anyone says, that kind of feat deserves respect. Ofcourse Russians pulled the same feat, while fighting off the said army, but still.

Yep, it was quite a political and military accomplishment being able to build the worlds best military maschine in so few years, and under such restrictions. Originally Hitler was preparing for war in 1942 vs Soviet-Russia, not Western Europe. But of course, it proved impossible to take Poland (and create a common boarder with Russia) without war vs. France and the UK. Many thougt it was a bit too early for the german army, but they proved to be very able to conquer Poland, Benelux, Denmark, Norway and France in less then a year.

 

[caketastydelish]

You really need to work on your world affairs. You're sounding like a typical American who knows nothing about what happens outside of your borders. First of all Canada is an independant country with our own constitution and political system. Yes we still recognize the Queen but it's just a ceremonial thing that has absolutely no bearing on our political process. She's a figure head, nothing more and has no say in how things are done here. And there are many of us who feel that we should just get rid of her altogether and have a true republic like Australia has done. But the political will to take that step is lacking. We were granted full independance without any bloodshed by Queen Victoria in 1867. And no we are not VERY influenced by England, in fact we've had very little to do with them since WW2. The US has much more influence on our culture and politics than England does, and has for a long time now. Even before the war we were more closely tied to the US than we were to England.

And England had nothing to do with Vietnam, in fact they were opposed to US involvement there IIRC. At least towards the end anyway. Though my recollections of that period are a bit vague, as I was quite young at the time. They certainly did nothing to help the US out. It was an American show, no one else was involved. Even France didn't help out and Vietnam used to be one of their colonies.

And how do you figure that the US helped Cuba get their dictator, if that's what you want to call Castro? During the revolution there the US backed the other side, providing them with weapons and even some men. And later they organized a botched attempt to try an assassinate him. They've never wanted Castro in power, and done everything they possibly could to thwart him ever since his political movement began. It was the Soviets that supported Castro and helped him gain power, not the US. I'm not sure where you're getting your info from, but it's hopelessly wrong.

PS: Oh and Korea was a UN action, not an American one. It involved troops from countries all over the world, including Canada. The US played a dominant role there only because they had the strongest military at the time.

I am aware that England had nothing to do with Viatnam. Did I ever say they did? Well, you got me there with England. I was tought in school that England has a big influence on Canada. Why do they have to keep filling me up with lies?

Well, you know what? US was IN the UN. If US wasn't in the UN, we wouldn't have been in Korea.

And you seem to contradict yourself. If Canada hates US so much like you say, how can our cultures and such be so simular?

 

[Grimz101]

I am aware that England had nothing to do with Viatnam. Did I ever say they did? Well, you got me there with England. I was tought in school that England has a big influence on Canada. Why do they have to keep filling me up with lies?

Well, you know what? US was IN the UN. If US wasn't in the UN, we wouldn't have been in Korea.

And you seem to contradict yourself. If Canada hates US so much like you say, how can our cultures and such be so simular?

Do you own research then, Wikipedia is opposed by some people since they wish for you to keep being brainwashed by your school system.. whether that be on funded by Islamic Extremists, Christian Creationists ect...

For Korea..
The conflict was expanded by the United States and the Soviet Union's involvement as part of the larger Cold War... Korea was basicly a Communist Vrs Capitalist proxy.. obviously USA and USSR would not fight directly because of MAD(Mutually Assured Destruction).. Thats what got you in the War..

I hate certain aspects of the USA and their Foreign Policy, and Protectionism.. but i have to put these feelings away as an economist !
Trade spreads culture.. Canada and USA trade alot.. it is not so much hatred in Canada but resentment directed at the Administration, and people who follow the Administration blindly, and US Corporations power on the Goverment, as they Fund the parties and hold considerable influence..

 

[Comrade Alex]

All this talk about Stalin and him killing 18 million people. Oh dear. While it is probable that this is an accurate figure for the number of people who died needlessly during his leadership, it does not really make the distinction between Hitler-esque mass killings and more passive deaths, such as the Holodomor famine (some say it was all engineered by Stalin, which I do not believe is viable due to the increasing threat of the Nazi regime to te West).

I'm not denying that the purges ever occured, since members of my family perished in Siberian Gulags, merely that the actual figure for direct, pre-mediated killings is far lower, perhaps as low as 4 million (gulags and deportations 3.5 million, executions 0.5 million).

Anyway, point is, Stalin is often demonised excessively by the West in an attempt to denounce Communism itself. In actual fact, he was far less brutal than the old Tsarist regime.

Still a . .. .. .. . though.

!lock this thread!

 

[Comrade Alex]

Besides, I belive that the genocide of the native American Indians is accountable for far more deaths than any Soviet regime (According to Le Livre Noire du Capitalisme, which estimates around 70 million)

:/

 

[Willem]

I am aware that England had nothing to do with Viatnam. Did I ever say they did?

Well yes you did:

Secondly, England has also worked with us for many things.

Viatnam for example.

Well, you know what? US was IN the UN. If US wasn't in the UN, we wouldn't have been in Korea.

Well the same can be said for Canada and all the other countries that fought in that war. That means nothing.

If Canada hates US so much like you say, how can our cultures and such be so simular?

Well first of all we don't hate you, you just piss us off on a regular basis. And it's partly because our cultures are so similar that we do. American influence has been rammed down our throats for a long time. There have been times where we've tried to find our own path and tried for something different but had you people interfere in our choices. As long as we do exactly what you expect of us then we get along fine, but if we try something different then we get all kinds of presssure from your government to "toe the line". When we were negotiating the Free Trade deal a few years back, we had to fight tooth and nail to keep our cultural industries, radio, books etc. off the bargaining table since US interests wanted control of those as well. It would have meant a serious blow to our unique cultural identity, however marginal that may be.

Did you know that we once had the best fighter jet in the world, the Avro Arrow? It was much better than anything the American companies were producing at the time. Well they didn't like that too much so pressure was put on our government to scrap the program, which they did. We spent millions developing the aircraft and the only prototypes were destroyed simply because the Americans wanted us to. There's been a long string of situations like that during our history together. The US isn't willing to leave countries to govern themselves as they see fit, they're constantly interfering in political affairs all over the world. Yet if there's a corrupt regime that gives them a license to print money, they're more than happy to let them be even if it means the common people are repressed and living in poverty. You have a long history of propping up nasty governments that care nothing for the people they govern, but are only interested in making an easy profit from the American multinationals.

 

[caketastydelish]

Do you own research then, Wikipedia is opposed by some people since they wish for you to keep being brainwashed by your school system.. whether that be on funded by Islamic Extremists, Christian Creationists ect...

For Korea..
The conflict was expanded by the United States and the Soviet Union's involvement as part of the larger Cold War... Korea was basicly a Communist Vrs Capitalist proxy.. obviously USA and USSR would not fight directly because of MAD(Mutually Assured Destruction).. Thats what got you in the War..

I hate certain aspects of the USA and their Foreign Policy, and Protectionism.. but i have to put these feelings away as an economist !
Trade spreads culture.. Canada and USA trade alot.. it is not so much hatred in Canada but resentment directed at the Administration, and people who follow the Administration blindly, and US Corporations power on the Goverment, as they Fund the parties and hold considerable influence..

I am unsure what Canada being influenced by England would have to do with Islamic Extremist or Christian creationist.

The cold war, was the after effects of world war 2. If the US never got involved with it in the first place, US wouldn't have been involved in the Cold war either.

If George Washington came back today, he would cry after seeing our Foreign Policy. Thats exactly what my point is!

This is what happened. Someone called George Washington a bad leader, to make the argument that if we take Stalin out, we should take him out as well. Then, I defended George Washington. I paraphrased him by saying "US should avoid making allies and getting involved with foreign affairs. It will be bad for us".

And from that, Canada got involved and now this...

 

[caketastydelish]

Well yes you did:





Well the same can be said for Canada and all the other countries that fought in that war. That means nothing.



Well first of all we don't hate you, you just piss us off on a regular basis. And it's partly because our cultures are so similar that we do. American influence has been rammed down our throats for a long time. There have been times where we've tried to find our own path and tried for something different but had you people interfere in our choices. As long as we do exactly what you expect of us then we get along fine, but if we try something different then we get all kinds of presssure from your government to "toe the line". When we were negotiating the Free Trade deal a few years back, we had to fight tooth and nail to keep our cultural industries, radio, books etc. off the bargaining table since US interests wanted control of those as well. It would have meant a serious blow to our unique cultural identity, however marginal that may be.

Did you know that we once had the best fighter jet in the world, the Avro Arrow? It was much better than anything the American companies were producing at the time. Well they didn't like that too much so pressure was put on our government to scrap the program, which they did. We spent millions developing the aircraft and the only prototypes were destroyed simply because the Americans wanted us to. There's been a long string of situations like that during our history together. The US isn't willing to leave countries to govern themselves as they see fit, they're constantly interfering in political affairs all over the world. Yet if there's a corrupt regime that gives them a license to print money, they're more than happy to let them be even if it means the common people are repressed and living in poverty. You have a long history of propping up nasty governments that care nothing for the people they govern, but are only interested in making an easy profit from the American multinationals.

Well this is the point I'M trying to make! For US to get out of Foreign affairs and leave other countries alone! This is what George Washington advised!

 

[Comrade Alex]

The Canadians aren't the only ones disenchanted with the omnipresence of the Americans, in Britain the general sentiment is pretty firmly anti-American.

And please stop calling the United Kingdom "England". It sounds petty, but England is effectively just a province.
God it irritates me when anglophilic Americans do that.

 

[Comrade Alex]

Geroge Washington wasn't that brilliant... o.O

Neither was Churchill.

 

[Comrade Alex]

Well first of all we don't hate you, you just piss us off on a regular basis. And it's partly because our cultures are so similar that we do. American influence has been rammed down our throats for a long time. There have been times where we've tried to find our own path and tried for something different but had you people interfere in our choices. As long as we do exactly what you expect of us then we get along fine, but if we try something different then we get all kinds of presssure from your government to "toe the line". When we were negotiating the Free Trade deal a few years back, we had to fight tooth and nail to keep our cultural industries, radio, books etc. off the bargaining table since US interests wanted control of those as well. It would have meant a serious blow to our unique cultural identity, however marginal that may be.

Holler that Willem
Same with Britain tbh.

 

[Grimz101]

I am unsure what Canada being influenced by England would have to do with Islamic Extremist or Christian creationist.

The cold war, was the after effects of world war 2. If the US never got involved with it in the first place, US wouldn't have been involved in the Cold war either.

If George Washington came back today, he would cry after seeing our Foreign Policy. Thats exactly what my point is!

This is what happened. Someone called George Washington a bad leader, to make the argument that if we take Stalin out, we should take him out as well. Then, I defended George Washington. I paraphrased him by saying "US should avoid making allies and getting involved with foreign affairs. It will be bad for us".

And from that, Canada got involved and now this...

Well i was talking about school systems.. after you said you were taught The United Kingdon exerted influence over Canada.. which is wrong.. i went on to say you should never rely on one source of information, and that the history you are taught may be influenced by whoever funds your school or even the teacher...

The thing is America Forced Japan into war in a way.. Japan lacked oil, America did Embargo, so Japans only sources of oil would have to be taken by force..
If America kept selling Japan oil im confident in that Pearl Harbour may have never happend..
If America never entered the war can you really think things would have been more posative.. lets say there were three main factions
Axis against USSR + Capitalist West
USA was on Capitalist West team.. if they never joined Either:
Axis go on controling all of Europe, Take Northern Africa, Middle East, Eastern Russia, India.. who would eventually turn eyes to America, losses in life would be much greater then what happend in reality..
Or USSR eventually wins a long drawn out war, Takes Berlin then continues to take all Territory in Europe Nazi Germany Conquered, Europe Engulfed in Communism except for UK, who may eventually turn or adopt a Communist Friendly goverment as USSR will hold considerable weight having all mainland Europe.. USA relys on trade, it would most likely abandon the rest of the world so economy strained.. USA would aim to have closer ties with all North and South American countries, USSR would having a standing army of around 100million, then if a war occured America would be the loser..

George Washington is not Jesus so i dont really care what he would do.. i would think he would agree to encourage more trade so less chance of wars happening..

USA adopting an Isolationist Policy, would likely mean its less willing to trade with foreign countries, which would mean more wars as trade is an incentive to long lasting peace.. look how many wars there has been in Europe since the EU was formed..

 

[Krug]

The cold war, was the after effects of world war 2. If the US never got involved with it in the first place, US wouldn't have been involved in the Cold war either.

Now that part of the post just disgusts me, if the US did not get involved in WWII Hitler probably would have won. We NEEDED to be there, if we hadn't been there then the axis would have ruled the world.

 

[King Kalmah]

Why do people always use the EU....

how many wars have been fought....to MANY in Europe...one war of genocide is enough

you forgot Bosnia/Kosvo/Serbian junk

thank god Romania lost its dictator in the late 80's or they would have started WW3 probably.