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Does Stalin really belong in the game?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by caketastydelish, May 8, 2008.

  1. Grimz101

    Grimz101 King

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    Lets face it USA can get away with killing civilians every now and then.. but they cannot conduct massacres reguarlly and pass laws that are punishable by death, they cannot subject the nation to its laws ect, i was just trying to establish it was much easier for the Nazi occupation compared to American occupation.. so i declare us both right :p
    Japan declared war because it needed to take over Dutch, UK and American dominions on the pacific for oil and other resources.. Japan attacked pearl harbour to cripple the Pacific fleet so it could take these resources in peace.. Americas Oil embargo caused/extenunated this
     
  2. Comrade Alex

    Comrade Alex Warlord

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    Hooray! For diplomacy!
     
  3. Navarre

    Navarre Legio XIII

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    That's total BS.

    And that's from an US source in 1945, not a French one : 112 gripes against the French.

    You might want to read the Wikipedia article on resistance during WW II.
     
  4. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish By any means necessary

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    Its more complicated than that. Japan attacked us because they thought war with the US was immenent. They thought that because.

    1. Our lend-lease with Britan (an allied country)

    2. We were allied in the last war, so we'd probably go allied in this one as well.

    3. We had a trade embargo on Japan.

    There could be other reasons as well, but those are the three main ones.

    As for Germany in World war 1? We were allied with Britan, so once again, they thought US entering the war was immenent. However, they figured they might as well get the first strike. If avoided alliances and such, they wouldn't have attacked us. We kept helping England's economy in both world wars (even before US was in the war) and Germany didn't like that. They didn't like us giving supplies and such to them, so they attacked us.

    If we didn't get involved in European affairs, 250,000 (and thats just the WW2 American Causality rate) soldiers wouldn't have had to die. And thats not the only drawbacks.

    Stalin was also racist like hitler. Stalin persecuted Jews, blacks, gysies, homosexuals, and possibly more! I said that already in the very first post of the first page.
     
  5. IronicBuddha

    IronicBuddha Work in progress

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    I don't think that PC-ness should determine which leaders get in. The ones that affected the world, evil or not, are the ones that should be included. But hey, a hitler thread is a hitler thread, not worth arguing here.
     
  6. Grimz101

    Grimz101 King

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    Im gonna leave someone else to deal with you since i refuse to dig myself into a bigger hole :p!


    Im sure America was still trading with the Axis Powers before the declaration of war :)!

    2. Point two is silly.. Look at Italy.. WWI was was with UK and Co.. WWII with Axis and co..
    2.5. Read up about Nazi Germany trying to encourage Mexico to invade USA then discuss that and you get a gold star, since that would be a more valid reason :D

    3. Only point i agree with, and so you are proving USA perpetuated the war :)?

    So are you saying America did not have a responsibility to join the War.. it was in its own intrests.. already pointed to and outlied what would have happened if USA never got involved.. and well it seems there would of been more death in the long run if USA wasnt involved :crazyeye:

    Whilist Stalin ruled, the USSR was Industrialized from a backwards agricultural state, 100 years behind the west, to a Superpower that was able to thrawt the Axis Invasion, A nation who put in orbit the first artificial satellite.. What if Stalin never came to power, merely stayed a Secutary in the Party? Well comrade we(I live in London :crazyeye: ) may be including Hitler in CIV IV because he Won...
    Although there were many negative externalities of his reign.. one shouldnt dismiss his accomplishments..



    **Edit**
    However someone else has already brought up a summary that closes why the Stalin Vrs Hitler arguement is null...
    Hitler is the personification of Evil in many peoples mind, the Anti-Christ to some..
     
  7. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Well that's kind of my point. Britain couldn't have pushed Germany from the West alone so the Soviets would have ended up sweeping right through Europe.
     
  8. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    You shouldn't really put Austria on that list. They're a German speaking country and didn't put up much of a fight when Hitler marched in. Many Austrians were quite happy to join up with their fellow Germans and the country probably would have joined even without the tanks.
     
  9. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    And how many more tyrants just like Saddam are there out there in the world yet the US does absolutely nothing about about them? Does it have even one thing to say against the Myanmar regime or Mugabe in Africa? And what about Sudan, is it doing anything to stop the bloodshed there? Claiming altruism because you've removed one of the petty tyrants in this world while not even lifting a finger against the rest is hypocritical in the extreme. And altruism had nothing to do with Bush going in to Iraq. It was about oil and American self interest, nothing more. Unless economic interests are at stake, the US does nothing more than spout empty phrases about human rights and equality. It's about time you people started putting your money where your mouth is, or get out of everybody's business altogether.
     
  10. T.A JONES

    T.A JONES Deity

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    They do not speak the same German Germans speak - they speak a sometimes rather heavy dialect, or accent. Much harder to understand if your a native German or taugh German overseas in North American school
    Shesh son get it right ;) Ignore test
     
  11. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    The Vichy government during the war was well known for supporting the German position. Many of the free French considered them traitors for so willingly going along with German policies and were treated as such when the war was over. That's not to say that all the French were sympathetic to Nazism but many were, just like many Dutch were as well. My father was in the Dutch resistance during the war and I've heard many stories about how some people openly supported German control.
     
  12. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    So what! Some North Americans find the Irish or Scots to be hard to understand yet they still speak English. The fact remains that many Austrians were more than willing to join up with the Nazis.
     
  13. Navarre

    Navarre Legio XIII

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    Some, yes. The government under the occupation, considered a traitor and illegitimate governement, yes. But from there going all the way to say there was little to no resistance in Europe under Nazi occupation and the anti-jew sentiment was mostly shared by the population is false.
     
  14. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish By any means necessary

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    Actually, we where lend leasing with Britan, and NOT with Germany. Nazi Germany wanted Mexico to attack US (and it was just Texas by the way) because just like Japan, they thought United States going allied was immenent.
     
  15. Comrade Alex

    Comrade Alex Warlord

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    That smells of wrong. Japan was also allied with the triple Entente during the first world war though.

    I agree with the third point though, the embargo. Japan's pacific expansion was based upon a need to aquire more raw materials.

    Also true, Hitler himself was Austrian. Had it not been for the Hapsburgs Austria and Germany would have united long ago. The point remains, however, that the Anschluss referendum was rigged, so technically I do believe that Austria has a place on that list.

    Imagine the UK annexing Eire.


    But really, Hitler shouldn't be included in the game. Aside from it being inconsiderate, he was not a seminal leader, which (let's face it) Stalin was.

    The four major allied leaders are included, because they won the war (Churchill, FDR, Stalin and De Gaulle). Hitler, Hirohito and Mussolini lost, so can't really be classed as great or influential world leaders.

    Leaving Hitler out of the WWII mod though? Psh.
    Von Papen is too wet to be taken seriously.
     
  16. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    I didn't say that. I said there was far less than what the US is now facing in Iraq. Please read the posts before you make your comments. Believe me I know there was resistance, my father was part of it.
     
  17. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    And the distinction is? :confused:
     
  18. Comrade Alex

    Comrade Alex Warlord

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    That was the First World War was it not?
     
  19. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    Hitler killed 20 million ppl of which 6 million were jews. (stop hogging the halocaust spotlight jews!) The only diffrence between Hitler, Stalin, and Mao and other genocidal tyrants of the past was technology. If the catholic church had gas chambers and cattle cars in the dark ages we would all be living in an orwellian nightmare world with the pope as big brother.:scan:

    Hitler civic list: police state(of course), nationhood (deutchland uber alles), slavery(death camps), SP (german (NA)tional (ZI)ocialist worker's party), theocracy (norse mythology+crazyism)
     
  20. Comrade Alex

    Comrade Alex Warlord

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    That'd be immense.

    In a truly disturbing way.

    Not that I'm a Catholic or anything.
     

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