Does the west understand Islam?

The vast majority of Islamic countries are not that "Westernised". Many will still believe that America is the "Great Satan". There are a few that are westernised, but they are the minority and generally they are oil rich mini nations, not the big ones where most of the Muslims live in.
 
classical_hero said:
The vast majority of Islamic countries are not that "Westernised". Many will still believe that America is the "Great Satan". There are a few that are westernised, but they are the minority and generally they are oil rich mini nations, not the big ones where most of the Muslims live in.
Islamic countries are more liberal than you're being led to believe.
 
Sidhe said:
Why? Could you kindly back that troll up with text from the Koran or anything at all, no didn't think so? Personal opinion it is then.:rolleyes: Not really what I want in this thread, but thanks for sharing ;)

Winner said:
I think you'll have enough quotes once aneeshm shows up ;)

Somebody called my name ? Here I am ;) !

I am afraid I understand Islam ( the pure form , based absoultely on the Quran and Hadith ) a bit too well for politically correct self-deluded comfort .

This thread promises to be fun - it'll be like shooting fish in a barrel , the minute you mention Quran quotes ;) .

Let's just begin with a dab of intolerance towards critical debate of anything in the Quran ( which makes sure that a faithful Muslim will not be allowed to participate in the debate which we are having right now ;) ) ,

When thou seest men
Engaged in vain discourse
About Our signs,
Turn away from them unless
They turn to a different
Theme . . . . . . .
[6.68]

Already he has sent you
Word in the Book , that when
You hear the Signs of Allah
Held in defiance and ridicule
You are not to sit with them
Unless they turn to a different
Theme : if you did , you would be
Like them . For God will
Collect the hypocrites and those
Who defy faith - all in Hell .
[4.140]
( Nice way of making sure that people are afraid to even discuss the Quran for fear of saying something which could be construed as critical and therefore be sent to eternal torture in hell . No wonder Muslims are not participating too much :lol: . And I'm afraid we're all hellbound , too ;) . )

O you who believe !
Ask not questions
About things which
If made plain to you
May cause you trouble
But if you ask about things
When the Quran is being
Revealed , they will be
Made plain to you
[5.104]
( And as the revelation of the Quran was completed over 1350 years ago , the time for asking questions is clearly over - too bad for the modern world , no ? :lol: )

Nothing we have omitted from the Book of our Decrees .
[6.38]
( Nice passage , isn't it - the one that justified the burning of the libraries/universities of Nalanda , Takshashila , and Alexandria )

add in a whole lot of intolerance towards the kafirs ( specifially the idol-worshipers ) ( note that the following quotes do not have context provided ) ,

kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191),
to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123),

slay them (Q. 9: 5),

fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 )

even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29)

no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85).

relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11),

calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28).

fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17).

slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that “they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter” (Q.5: 34).

As for the disbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (Q. 22: 9).

prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28).

strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52),

be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9).

“strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” (Q. 47: 4).

a wallop of oppression of women with regressive laws ,

for women they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34).

women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q. 66:10).

men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228).

denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12),

it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282).

This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslims to marry up to four views and gave them license to sleep with their slave maids and as many “captive” women as they may have (Q. 4:3).

and , and viola! - you have one serving of orthodox Islam as defined historically by the Ulema , the Quran , and the Hadith .

Want any more ? I've got a book full of them :lol: !
 
Okay aneesh, for the millionth time. The verses of the Qur'an that say things like :

kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191)


slay them (Q. 9: 5),

fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 )
Okay guys, you've heard from aneesh a Hindu about Islam. Now listen to a Muslim about Islam.

Isn't commanding Muslims to kill unbelievers. No, those verses were revealed at a certain time and they were revealed only for that period of time. At the time these verses were being revealed, the Muslims were fighting the Pagans of Mecca. The Pagans outnumbered the Muslims by more than 100:1. There were Thousands of Pagans and only a hundred or so Muslims. Then God revealed a message to them to fight them, fight them for your survival. But after the war was over, the verses had no meaning. They were only for a certain period of time. They are not rules for Muslims or commandments. It is supposed to be read in context. If you read a translation of the Qur'an, you will read in the footnotes of those verses that those verses are not commandments to Muslims, that they were messages to the earliest Muslims who were fighting for their survival. Those verses have nothing to do with Muslims today. See, as a Hindu, you wouldn't know that would you?

All the other verses about non-believers going to hell: whats new about that? In every religion it says that nonbelievers are going to hell. It says it in the Bible. Are you going to start quoting verses of the Bible?

Here is an Islamic website (not a Hindu nationalist one) explaining your quotes. You're only quoting a few words out of long verses, so you're twisting words intentionally. Islam does not permit the mistreatment of women nor does it hold men superior to women.

http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essays/abuseverse.htm
[/url]

Al-Qur’an 4:34

“Men shall take full care of women with the bounties Allah has bestowed on them, and what they may spend out of their possession; as Allah has eschewed each with certain qualities in relation to the other. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which Allah has ordained to be guarded.

As for those women whose ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then distance yourself in bed, and the tap them; but if they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Surely, Allah is indeed the Most High, the Greatest.”

Role of family

The role of family in the overall social structure of Islam is great and if we fail to grasp its importance, the whole edifice will collapse.

In Islam there is no family without union or marriage and there is no marriage without rules and discipline. The family in Islam is a unit in which two independent persons unite and share life together. The husband’s dignity is an integral part of his wife’s dignity. Accordingly, neither of them is better than the other. To unite and share, there must be mutual love and compassion – a genuine feeling which; unless translated into action and behavior, would be mere illusion.

Women’s rights in the family

From the very outset, Islam has been a liberating religion that uplifted the status of women and gave them rights that were considered revolutionary 1400 years ago. In spite of this founding spirit, Muslim practices today often oppress women and deny them the equality and human dignity granted in the Qur’an. The family should be the first essential area in which women’s rights have to be secured.

The question that arises is that if Islam liberated women centuries ago, then why is it that maltreatment of wives is not a rare occurrence among Muslim people? Most likely, I suspect, it comes from misinterpretations of a Qur’anic verse and of some ahadith.

The institution of marriage

When Allah mentions marriage or the relationship between husband and wife in the Qur’an, He describes it as one of love, mercy, and harmony between two human beings who have entered into a mutual contract. For example, “And among His wonders is that; He created fro you mates out of your own kind, so that you may incline toward them, and He engenders love and tenderness between you; in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who think.” (Q 20:21) And, “It is He who has created you out of one entity, so that one might incline (with love) towards the other.” (Q 7:189)

Expression of love

According to the Qur’an, the relationship between husband and wife should be one of love, mercy and mutual understanding. Allah also commands men to treat their wives, “And consort with your wives in a goodly manner, for if you dislike something about them, it may be well that you dislike something which Allah might yet make a source of abundant good.” (Q 4:19)

The Qur’an speaks of the intimate and close relationship of the two spouses in these words: “They are like garments unto you as you are like garments unto them” (Q 2:187). This verse; by using the simile of garments, has explained two basic facts. First, dress is considered to be one of the most fundamental needs of human beings in all stages of life. Second, dress covers the nakedness of human beings and hides those parts which are to be kept hidden. Every person has his weakness and frailty and does not want them to be disclosed to others.

The two sexes working together, not only cover each other’s weakness and frailty, but also enhance each other’s capabilities and help each other make up their deficiencies. Men are told to be generous and liberal in their treatment of women under all circumstances, especially when the relations between the two are not very amicable. Surah al-Baqarah refers to this in these words: “And do not forget liberality between yourselves” (Q 2:237). Even in divorce, men are enjoined to be just and fair (Ma’ruf) to their wives. We read these words also in Surah al-Baqarah: “When you divorce women, and they fulfill the term of their waiting (“iddah), either take them back honorably on equitable terms or set them free with kindness and goodness.” (Q 2:229)

So, it is through the institution of marriage that true expression is given to what the Qur’an refers to as “love and mercy” (Q 30:21) between men and women; that men and women are like each other’s garments (Q 2:187), that “be you male or female, you are members of one another” (Q 3:195), and that “men and women are protectors, one of another.” (Q 9:71)

Clarifying the terms Darajah, Qawwamun, and Faddala

Darajah, (step, degree or level) is something that is earned; acquired with responsibility.

When a level is granted to male or female on the basis of their good deeds or piety, there is no discrimination. This is demonstrated by the following Qur’anic concepts: “Unto men a fortune from what they have earned and unto women a fortune from that which they have earned”(Q 4:32). “Whoever works righteously; man or woman, and has faith: verily to him/her will We give a new life, a life that is good and pure. And We will bestow on such their rewards, according to the best of their actions” (Q 4:124). So when it comes to who has greater advantage with Allah in terms of deeds, there is no level or degree given to the male or female over the other.

The darajah for men over women occurs in the Qur’anic verse thus, “…And (Walahunna) women shall have right similar to the rights against them according to what is equitable. But men have a degree (of advantage) over them. Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (Q 2:228)

This verse occurs among a series of verses referring to the required period of separation before claiming a divorce. The degree of advantage refers to man’s being able to individually initiate divorce, whereas a woman can seek divorce only after intervention of an authority. So the advantage is limited to the circumstances of divorce only. Why this advantage? Most likely, because it is he who is duty- bound to support to the wife and unborn baby, and the previous verses are referring to the possibility that during separation the woman may be expecting, and if so, the man needs to give due consideration to taking her back because of his responsibility towards the unborn child. Hence, he has the responsibility/ decision about validating the divorce or taking his wife back. Yet, in Muslim cultures, an unrestricted value attaché to this concept of “advantage” and men generalize it to all aspects of life, claiming superiority over women.

This form of unrestricted value for all circumstances contradicts the equity established in the Qur’an, “that each ‘nafs’ (man or woman) is responsible for what it earns” (Q 4:32).

The Qu’ran has emphasized the female’s rights (Q 2:228) with the words “wa lahunna” in order to neutralize the possible impression that could be created by the previous sentence of enhancing the position of men over women. Truly, it is the wondrous and miraculous expression of the Qur’an that enables it to maintain the delicacy of the problem and at the same time solve the most complicated issues in a very noble and subtle way.

Thus, in a superb manner, the Qur’an has untied the knot of this problem by saying that while men have a degree of darajat (advantage) in holding the key to divorce; in the enjoyment of human rights, both men and women stand equal.

Qawwamun does not convey the sense of governorship or rule over women, but rather signifies men’s role as maintainers of women, because they support and meet their material needs from their wealth. The Shari’ah has entrusted the responsibility of women’s material needs to men, who are held liable for meeting all the economic needs of the family, while women are held responsible for looking after the children, their nourishment, education, training, etc. this division of the work of the household between husband and wife is based on their respective natural abilities. Fulfilling these responsibilities are the primary duties, though not exclusive, yet allowing free and full participation in all social, political and ethical activities with due propriety.

Now the concept of “Fadl”, the verse reads; “Men shall take full care of women with the bounties Allah has bestowed on them, and what they may spend out of their possession; as Allah has eschewed each with certain qualities in relation to the other. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which Allah has ordained to be guarded.

As for those women whole ill-will you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then distance yourself in bed, and then tap them; but if they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Surely, Allah is indeed the most High, the Greatest.” (Q 4:34)

This verse is often quoted for justifying the ruthless dominance of patriarchal males demanding obedience from their wives- to the point of disciplining them through physical punishment!

But let us analyze it with Qur’anic wisdom. Firstly, the “fadl” or preference is related to responsibility, so there is reciprocity between this privilege and responsibility. The fact is that it is through Allah’s benevolence that he gets this “fadl” should make a man God- conscious. So, if he is given this authority or preferential responsibility, it is accompanied by a heavy mandate and obligation. He cannot abuse the “fadl”. The purpose of this “fadl” could be attributed to the fact that a family functions harmoniously when there is leadership and authority in it, manifested through fulfilling duty and mutual co- operation.

It is wrong to conclude from this that as men (or women) have some “advantage” in one respect, they are therefore superior to the other. The right attitude should be for each sex to think that it is deficient in certain aspects, which can only be complimented by the collaboration and co-operation of the other as essential for its perfection and healthy growth. In other words, it should never fancy such ideas as its own excellence, but should consider itself dependent upon the other for its own perfection. The Qur’an has beautifully described this relationship of the two sexes in these words: “And among His signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts). Surely in that are signs for those who reflect.” (Q 31:21)

The issue of NUSHUZ

Verse 4:34 has commonly been used to Justify Wife beating. How can this can be explained?

NUSHUZ could be defined as animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill- treatment, discord, violation of marital duties on the part of either husband or wife. In this context, a wife’s “ill-will” implies a deliberate, persistent breach of her marital obligations.

The verse of Surah Nisa’ has attracted great attention from both within the Beliving community and without: “As regards those women on whose part you fear defiance and ill- conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate in bed, (and last) tap them (if they still persist in their defiance); but if they cooperate and pay you heed, do not look for excuses to harm them. Note well that there is Allah above you all.” (Q 4:34)

In the context of the above verse the most appropriate meaning for nushuz is marital discord (ill- will, animosity etc.) The process suggested is necessary, otherwise it is inviting the likelihood of divorce without any reconciliation procedure, and this will contravene the Qur’anic guidance. The separation could be temporary or permanent depending on the reconciliation procedure, and this fits in very well with the divorce procedure outlined in the Qur’an. Therefore the more accurate understanding of the above verse would be: (4:34) “…As for those women whose animosity or ill- will you have reason to fear, discuss the mater with them, then separate in bed, then tap; and if they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.”

The verse following the above verse gives further weight to the above translation. (4:35) “And if you fear a breach between them (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment, Allah will make them one of mind. Lo! Allah is Ever Knower, Aware.”

An added weight to the meaning outlined above is given by verse (4: 128), where in the case of man the same word, nushuz, is also used. Note too that as ill- treatment emanating here is from the husband, a process of reconciliation is encouraged!

“If a wife fears ill- treatment (nushuz) or desertion (i’raad) on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best…” (Q 4:128)

In the same surah, we read, “Whoever among you; men or women, are guilty of this crime (impropriety/ obscenity), punish them both; then if they both repent and reform themselves, leave them alone, for Allah is Most Generous in accepting repentance, and Merciful in forgiving sins.” (4:16)

As previously mentioned, women could only be taken to task when they were guilty of open obscenity. The verse (Q 4:16) clearly states that whoever commits open licentiousness, man or woman, must be punished. It may here be mentioned that this open obscenity or licentiousness (nushuz) means obscenity short of adultery and fornication.

If a wife fears that her husband is going to be excessive, there is the same process for the wife too. She can advise him first. Psychological pressure of withdrawing closeness and intimacy? But why is there no reference to physical pressure, like a symbolic slap or the like? The wife is not required to slap her husband, guarding against the possibility of physical retaliation and its dire consequences. But she has use of an injunction, which is better than that; to sit down with respected members of the community, (if need be with a judge), and draw up a contract with the man, which says: You have done this or that- if you do it again, these will be the consequences. In other words, she is getting the community behind her.

Three steps for regaining marital harmony or an amicable settlement

We note that in the event that there is disruption of marital harmony, the Qur’an suggests three steps for regaining harmony. In order of preference, they are:

(Step 1) Wa’z (admonition, consultation and discussion). This is the preferred method suggested for regaining marital harmony and is the same mechanism discussed in the Qur’an for the coordination of affairs between all groups of people. Consultation can be between the parties (as in 4:34) or between the two parties with the help of arbiters or hakim (4:35, 4:128). Wa’z or admonition implies advising and reminding one of the consequence of one’s actions; this in a way that softens the heart of the listener (16:125) and making him/ her incline favorably to your words.

(Step 2) Wahjur (to separate in bed; time and space boycott, at least one night). If consultation does not lead to marital harmony, the second suggestion is of time-out, a phrase to denote a separation in time and/ or space between two people. This is a form of psychological pressure. Note that it is avoidance in the house or in front of the family, children and so forth.

The purpose of that act is to solve the problem well- known not to belittle the woman or uncover the secrets that are going on. However, it is a reaction to her act of nushuz and recalcitrance by avoiding her and turning away from her in hope that this will lead to reciprocity and togetherness. It can be for an intermediate cooling off period only, or could presumably continue indefinitely, which in the context of marriage could only mean divorce.

(Step 3) Daraba (a gentle strike or tap: an expression of physical pressure) If the first two methods are used in their preferred order to the fullest extent, the need for the third method of a strike would not be reached.

A famous Multi- meaning word “Daraba”

The problem of abuse comes from the word “Idribuhunne” which is usually translated as “beat them”. The root of this word is “Daraba”. If one consults an Arabic dictionary you would find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word!

The list is one of the longest lists in the whole Arabic dictionaries and has so many different meanings. In the Qur’an, depending on the context, one can ascribe different meanings to it, i.e:

To travel to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 1:273

To strike: 2:60; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:04

To beat: 8:50; 47:27

To set up: 43:58; 57:13

To give (examples): 14:24-45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:2858; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10-11

To take away, to ignore: 43:5

To condemn: 2:61

To seal, to draw over: 18:11

To cover: 24:31

To explain: 13:17

Thus, in the Qu’ran alone wa witness the verb “Daraba” having at least ten different meanings. “Daraba” has also other meaning which are not mentioned in the Qur’an. For example in the Arabic language, you do not print money-- you “Daraba” money, you do not multiply numbers-- you “Daraba” numbers, you do not cease the work—you “Daraba” the work-

Webster’s Dictionary gives fourteen meanings to the verb “strike”: hit (against); ignite; (of snake)bite; (of plants) (cause to) take root; attack; hook (fish); sound (time) as bell in clock; affect; arrive at, come upon; enter mind of; discover (gold, oil etc.); dismantle; remove; make (coin); cease work as protest or to make demands. The same dictionary gives eight meanings to the verb “beat”: strike repeatedly; overcome; surpass; stir vigorously with striking action; flag (wings); make, wear (path); throb; sail against wind.

When we encounter a multi- meaning word, we select the proper meaning according to the context, form and common sense.

Why the “Daraba”?

Why has the Qur’an included the method of a “strike”? The Qu’ran always emphasizes doing good and abstaining from evil. If the Qur’an is looked at as an integrated and cohesive text, situations can be identified where the Qur’an calls for the prohibition of certain things in stages. For example, whereas early revelations discourage the use of intoxicants (2:219, 4:43), the final revelation on this matter clearly condemns and prohibits them (5:93-94).

This is where there is a need to understand the historical context in which the Qur’an was revealed. It is known that in the pre-Islamic period known as the Age of Ignorance (Jahiliyyah), there were gross practices of physical and emotional abuse of females such as female infanticide (killing of babies) and the custom of inheriting the wives of deceased relatives against the will of the women. Verse 4:34, which refers to a strike/ tap, was revealed early in the Medinan period at a time when cruelty and violence against women were still rampant. Seen within this context the strike is a restriction on existing practice, and not a recommendation. As Muslim society in Madinah developed towards an ideal state, the final verse in the Qur’an on male – female relationship (9:71) regards women and men as being each other’s protecting friends and guardians (‘awliyya) which emphasizes their cooperation in living together as partners.

In addition, this spirit can be used in viewing the Hadith and classical commentaries by Muslim jurists on the strike or daraba. Ahadith on striking in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih) are reported by Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Daud, Nasa’ie and Ibn Majah. The authorities stress that if a strike is resorted to, it should be merely symbolic such as a strike with a toothbrush or folded handkerchief (Tabari and Razi). Imam Shaf’ie is of the opinion that striking should preferably be avoided completely.

It can thus be concluded that the call for the (single) strike is a restriction and not a recommendation; as when the first two steps are practiced effectively, there is no need for a third step.

Obedience misconstrued

The Qur’an does not order women to slavishly obey their husbands. It says good women are qanitat (have qunut). Qunut is used for both women and men (3:17, 33:35) and non- humans (39:9, 2:117). Qunut does not refer to the obedience of a wife to a husband or of any human to another. It refers to the spirit of humility before Allah. When the verse goes on to say “if they obey you,” the Qur’an uses the term ta’a, which means for one human to follow the orders of another, referring not just to women obeying men, but men following orders as well (4:59). Ta’a is not used here in the command form for women, rather the Qur’an places a firm admonishment on the men: “If they (female) pay you heed (male)” the males commanded “not to seek a way against (the women)”. “If they obey you” does not mean that women have an obligation to slavishly obey men. Nor does it mean that if a woman disobeys, a husband can beat her. The focus is on the responsibility of men to treat women fairly, especially when women follow their suggestions.

Most of the women beaten nowadays are not beaten because the first two conditions have been met with, but are in fact beaten because of the husband’s anger over some petty issue. Such behavior is not that of a sincere Muslim and obviously has no sanction in the Qur’an whatsoever.

It is evident from many authentic traditions that the Prophet himself intensely detested the idea of beating one’s wife, and said on more than one occasion, “Could anyone of you beat his wife as if she is a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?” (Bukhari and Muslim). According to another tradition, he forbade the beating of any woman with the words, “Never beat God’s handmaidens” (Abu Daud, Ibn Majah, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Ibn Hibban, on the authority of ‘Abd Allah Ibn Abbas; and Bayhaqi on the authority of Umm Kulthum).

Next to piety, the believer finds nothing better for him than a virtuous wife. If he bids her good, she obeys. If he looks at her she gives him pleasure. If she gives him a promise, she fulfills it. If he is absent from her, she guards herself and his property (Ibn Majah).

This hadith states that the wife should obey her husband, but to what extent? Obviously, she cannot disobey her husband in anything that is haram. Not only that, but the obedience of the wife is in those duties listed above, viz. …with regard to cohabitation, domestic matters, guarding his property, and not allowing others to violate her/his dignity or their belongings.

In summary, there is the following hadith from the Prophet on the rights of a wife. A person asked the Messenger of Allah, “What right does the wife of one among us have over him?” His answer was, “It is that you shall give her food, you shall not slap her on the face, nor revile her, nor leave her alone except within the house” (Ahmad, Abu Da’ud, Ibn Majah). This implies provision, residence, respect and security.

Appreciation

Some husbands get upset when their wives refuse to do this or that around the house. This has subjected many wives to physical mistreatment. But the following incident clearly shows that it is not the duty of the wife to tend after the house, and therefore, it can in no way justify any sort of retort on the part of the husband. In fact, the following quote would make it seem that many women nowadays should be the one’s complaining as they are forced to do work that they are not truly totally responsible for:

It is reported that a man once came to ‘Umar, the second Caliph, with the intention of bringing to his notice certain complaints he had against his wife. When he reached the door of ‘Umar’s house, he heard the Caliph’s wife railing against him. Hearing this he went back as he though that the Caliph himself was in the same predicament and could therefore hardly be expected to set matters right for him. ‘Umar coming out of his house, saw the person going back. So he called him back and inquired as to the purpose, which had brought him to his house. He said that he had come to him with some complaints against his wife, but turned back on finding that the Caliph himself was subject to the same treatment from his wife. ‘Umar said to him that he patiently bore the excess of his wife because she had certain rights over him. “Is it not true that she cooks my food, washes my clothes and suckles my children, thus relieving me of the necessity of employing a cook, a washerman and a nurse, although she is not in the slightest degree responsible for this? Not only that, I enjoy peace of mind on account of her and I am protected from committing the sin of adultery. In view of these advantages, I put up with her excesses. You should also do the same.

Having clarified some of the misconceptions, countered some distortions, we acknowledge, of course, that not all men or women are following the teachings of the Qur’an in their relationships. Rather than looking at the verse holistically, they only focus on it with a bias to their advantage and abuse it. Men exploit and women rebel. Where men have done so, and women have remained ignorant, injustices have taken place even to the point of physical abuse. Some women, in their ignorance on the issue, have taken this as their Islamic plight. So, for their own benefit, women need to acquire knowledge from the Qur’an, become more aware, rally around it and assert themselves for fairness and justice.

Men should also understand the Qur’an with a fair and just mind without cultural filters and communicate with each other about it so that they can strive together for betterment in their spiritual path.

Prophetic Example

The Hadith, which we must realize is a record of the sayings and doings of the Prophet (pbuh), and the second source of Muslim law and practice, records the Prophet (pbuh) as saying: “The best of you is he who is best to his wife.” Aishah (RA) narrates that the holy Prophet never hit a servant or a woman.

The demeanor of the Messenger (pbuh) toward women, his attitude toward conflict resolution among couples, his exemplary treatment of his wives, his practice of gender- neutral consultation, his abhorrence of violence towards women, his love for all and his persistent efforts to alleviate the human condition; all bring us to the conclusion that he wanted to usher in freedom, dignity and equality; making everyone conscious of only one God- the God of all human beings, not a chauvinistic God.

The Qur’an does not discriminate between the two sexes in any way that undermines their full worth as equal human beings, nor does it give either of them; men or women, priority or superiority over the other in any manner whatsoever, neither does in endorse spouse abuse nor does it encourage spouse battering. Just as men have rights over women, likewise women have rights over men. Just as women have certain duties and obligations, likewise men have certain duties and obligations.

Research has shown that oppressive interpretations of the Qur’an are influenced mostly by cultural practices and values which regard women as inferior and subordinate to men. It is not Islam that oppress women, but human beings that have failed to understand Allah’s directives.

The honor or superiority of any person cannot be established on the basis of color, race, nationality, gender or family. It must be judged on the basis of his or her piety, conduct and excellence of character, which must be good and virtuous in word and deed. The more a person is good and virtuous in word and action, the greater is his/her excellence; “Surely, the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the pious, the most righteous” (49:13).
 
In Little Egypt there is the thought that all terrorists are Muslim, and all Muslims are terrorists. Frightening how many people just want to 'pave' the Middle East or turn all of the sand into glass. God I hate where I live.
 
I actually own the Koran, and have read parts of it. The nice thing about it is that you dont have to read it in any particular order, since it's not organized chronologically, actually it's organized from longest to shortest ( books, that is). I was amazed to find that Allah, God, and Yaweh are all the same god (Allah in the Arab word for "god"). Now, I am a Western Christian, but I hold no hatred for Muslims, rather, I admire their piety, their religion, which is really just a different method of worshipping the same God, because it holds them to much stricter rules, such as no alcohol, or no pork.
I think the biggest thing you must realize is that Judaism, Crisitianity, and Islam, as I stated earlier, they all worship the same God, but they are dfferent methods of worshipping Him, based on the culture or time period that it came about.
Of course, when mentioning that these three are the same religion, I expect to hear the argument brought up that Muslims and Jews do not acknowledge Christ as their savior, the Son of God; indeed that realization is what defines one as a Christian. The other two believe that the savior has not come yet. I'm not sure what more I can say about this subject, I still have much to learn.
 
Capulet said:
Isn't commanding Muslims to kill unbelievers. No, those verses were revealed at a certain time and they were revealed only for that period of time. At the time these verses were being revealed, the Muslims were fighting the Pagans of Mecca. The Pagans outnumbered the Muslims by more than 100:1. There were Thousands of Pagans and only a hundred or so Muslims. Then God revealed a message to them to fight them, fight them for your survival. But after the war was over, the verses had no meaning. They were only for a certain period of time. They are not rules for Muslims or commandments. It is supposed to be read in context. If you read a translation of the Qur'an, you will read in the footnotes of those verses that those verses are not commandments to Muslims, that they were messages to the earliest Muslims who were fighting for their survival. Those verses have nothing to do with Muslims today. See, as a Hindu, you wouldn't know that would you?

That is a good interpretation , and one which I personally support , but the problem is , all orthodox authorities disagree with you ( for the simple reason that admitting what you just said would be akin to saying that the Quran is not eternal or literally infallible or a literal guide to Muslims for all time , which would be suicidal to their authority ) . You check up with the ulema in India from the time of Aurangzeb ( one of the oldest compilations of edicts in India is the Fatawa-e-Alamgiri , written during his time ) , and you will find that this baheviour pattern was there since the times of the earlies Muslim invaders of India . I personally support your interpretation , but there is nothing I can do about the fact that all orthodox authorities disagree . The Ulema of Deoband have specifically issued a number of Fatwas relating to this issue , and all of them stress the same attitude espoused here . The problem here is that a specific instruction for a specific time ( which is , by the way , a contradiction of the eternal validity and infallibility of the Quran , as the Quran itself claims ) was universalised into a behaviour pattern that has caused untold misery in the world .

Capulet said:
All the other verses about non-believers going to hell: whats new about that? In every religion it says that nonbelievers are going to hell. It says it in the Bible. Are you going to start quoting verses of the Bible?

That is just factually incorrect . Judaism mentions nothing about all gentiles going to hell ( in fact , it doesn't mention much about hell at all ) . The followers of Noah's covenant with God ( which , unfortunately , excludes all idolaters , and even Christians ( for their idolatry in venerating the figure of Jesus and Mary ) , but includes Muslims ) are all living sinlessly in the eyes of the Jewish God .

Nor do Hinduism ( in the context of the Vedas ) , Jainism , or Buddhism say that there is a hell for the unbelievers ( but that may be because they don't have much of a concept of a division of the world into believers and others , nor do they believe in eternal damnation ( maybe because they believe in the theory of karma , which they consider applicable irrespective of religion ) ) .

Interestingly enough , I am doing a critical reading of the Bible right now . In the Old Testament , there is a lot of genocide , the most prominent being that of the Canaanites at the hands of the Israelites .
 
classical_hero said:
The vast majority of Islamic countries are not that "Westernised". Many will still believe that America is the "Great Satan". There are a few that are westernised, but they are the minority and generally they are oil rich mini nations, not the big ones where most of the Muslims live in.

I never said they were westernised, I said they were colonised.
 
islam means submision (to the will of God) according to webster and other dictionaries.

Western societies are built up based on freedom. So Islamic and western societies are based on antagonic principles.

So, once you understand that they are based on antagonic principles, the only thing you have to do is to choose, freedom or submission. I choose freedom.

What do you choose?
 
Why should I try and understand another person's religious belief? Especially in the case of Islam. A religion so backwards it creates thousands of violent "martyrs" every year.

Would the average Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Saudi Arabia reciprocate by understanding my Atheism? I seriously doubt it.
 
I may not understand Islam, but ah knowz when some Homie be all up in mah face, yo.
 
Capulet said:
Isn't commanding Muslims to kill unbelievers.

Sounds like it to me...even if it was for only a "period of time" like you say.:lol:

No, those verses were revealed at a certain time and they were revealed only for that period of time.

Proof please? Do you have some other verse that says the time period was lifted? If not, then couldnt it be regarded as timeless like the 10 commandments are?

At the time these verses were being revealed, the Muslims were fighting the Pagans of Mecca. The Pagans outnumbered the Muslims by more than 100:1.

So they are only called to murder pagans if they are outnumbered? /looks at number of muslims today /looks at everyone else.../compares both numbers.

But after the war was over, the verses had no meaning.

If it has no meaning then why put it in a holy book? I think your being rather naive to think it has "no meaning" and is totally innocent.

They were only for a certain period of time. They are not rules for Muslims or commandments. It is supposed to be read in context.

Exactly how does one take "kill the disbeleivers" out of context? But, I will give you a chance....show another verse that says that those verses' were only for that time.

If you read a translation of the Qur'an, you will read in the footnotes of those verses that those verses are not commandments to Muslims, that they were messages to the earliest Muslims who were fighting for their survival.

Once more, you seem to indicate/contradict yourself here...its ok to kill the disbeliever if you are fighting for your survival. What do you think is happening in the world today?:lol:

Those verses have nothing to do with Muslims today. See, as a Hindu, you wouldn't know that would you?

Are you not, as a muslim, allowed to lie directly to an disbeliever and its all good. Seem to recall reading that once.

And a final question for you. As a muslim, would you like to see Sharia as the law of the land the world over?
 
MobBoss raises the same point I did in my earlier post - that to admit that one part of the Quran was time-specific and not eternal would open it up its entirety to the same criticism , which is suicidal , because Islam relies totally on the eternal validity and infallibility of the Quran and the perfection of the Hadith . To deny even one bit , no matter howsoever silly it might seem in the light of modern science ( such as the mountains acting as gigantic nails to anchor the land down , or the Sun revolving around the Earth , and one day coming up in the West than in the East when it is denied permission by Allah to rest under his throne ) is to open Pandora's Box . I wonder - how long will this mulish stubbornness on the part of the Ulema last - until their last stronghold is seiged and finally broken ? Or when they realise that modern re-interpretation is necessary for survival ?
 
Urederra said:
islam means submision (to the will of God) according to webster and other dictionaries.

Western societies are built up based on freedom. So Islamic and western societies are based on antagonic principles.

So, once you understand that they are based on antagonic principles, the only thing you have to do is to choose, freedom or submission. I choose freedom.

What do you choose?

Bright day
Thy will be done,
In Earth, as it is in Heaven
 
aneeshm said:
MobBoss raises the same point I did in my earlier post - that to admit that one part of the Quran was time-specific and not eternal would open it up its entirety to the same criticism , which is suicidal , because Islam relies totally on the eternal validity and infallibility of the Quran and the perfection of the Hadith

The Christian Bible has the same issues - adherents often ignore certain passages because they were "meant for other times".

In fact, it's hypocritical of Mobboss to suggest that all passages found in the Koran should apply to current times when he does not hold the Christian Bible to the same standard.
 
Azadre said:
Islamic countries are more liberal than you're being led to believe.

Not the ones that I've been to. Turkey was the most liberal and it was still far from liberal in comparison to Western or even asian nations.
 
aneeshm said:
MobBoss raises the same point I did in my earlier post - that to admit that one part of the Quran was time-specific and not eternal would open it up its entirety to the same criticism , which is suicidal , because Islam relies totally on the eternal validity and infallibility of the Quran and the perfection of the Hadith . To deny even one bit , no matter howsoever silly it might seem in the light of modern science ( such as the mountains acting as gigantic nails to anchor the land down , or the Sun revolving around the Earth , and one day coming up in the West than in the East when it is denied permission by Allah to rest under his throne ) is to open Pandora's Box . I wonder - how long will this mulish stubbornness on the part of the Ulema last - until their last stronghold is seiged and finally broken ? Or when they realise that modern re-interpretation is necessary for survival ?

To admit the Koran is not Allah's exact word would be undermine everything the Islam stands for.

Taking the bible not literally (picking and choosing) is exactly what muslims point at to mock Christianity. Im pretty sure they will never follow that example.

I think I know alot about Islam, and Ive discussed alot of subjects with muslims in real life. Did it gave me more understanding? Sure. Did it make me appreciate Islam more? No, to the contrary.

Once you know how Islam works, and true muslims think it makes you all the more weary when you hear someone say "Islam is a peacefull religion" or "they will adjust to modernity" because you know how contrary that is to everything Islam stands for.
 
Does the West understand Islam? No, largely because there are so many ways in which Islam is interpreted and abused.

Classical Islam, at least superficially, teaches a modicum of tolerance towards "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews). They were allowed to practice their religion and were not enslaved per se. They were second class citizens (dhimmi) and forced to pay a tax for not being Muslim (jizya).

Many modern Islamists argue that present day Christians and Jews are not "People of the Book" any more and that they have lost their protected status because they have deviated from their original religious teachings. This places them in the realm of idolators and polytheists (Mushrikûn) and unbelievers (kuffar).
The following passage was taken from the Wikipedia section on Jihad and contains examples of the Quaranic directives on dealing with Mushrikun and kuffars.

Many verses in the Qur'an can be read as supporting violent warfare against unbelievers; notably:

"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!" (Qur'an 3:151)[16]

"How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrong-doers." (Qur'an 7:4-5)[17]

"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.'" (Qur'an 8:12)[18]

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly." (Qur'an 8:60)[19]

"Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,"(Qur'an 8:36)[20]

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."(Qur'an 9:5)[21]

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Qur'an 9:29)[22]

"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!" (Qur'an 9:30)[23]

"And the True Promise draweth nigh; then behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve! (They say): Alas for us! We (lived) in forgetfulness of this. Ah, but we were wrong-doers!" (Qur'an 21:97) [24]

"He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse."(Qur'an 61:9) [25]

"On the Day when (some) faces will be whitened and (some) faces will be blackened; and as for those whose faces have been blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (profession of) belief ? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved."(Qur'an 3:106)[26]

"Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise." (Qur'an 4:56) [27]

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do." (Qur'an 8:39) [28]

"O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence." (Qur'an 8:65)[29]

"Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings."(Qur'an 98:6)[30]

"Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!" (Qur'an 18:29)[31]

"These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted;And for them are hooked rods of iron.Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning." (Qur'an 22:19-22)[32]


I may not understand all of them, but I understand the ones that concern me.....
 
warpus said:
In fact, it's hypocritical of Mobboss to suggest that all passages found in the Koran should apply to current times when he does not hold the Christian Bible to the same standard.

Umm . . . . it isn't . That's because MobBoss is not the one claiming that the Quran is the infallible and eternally valid word of God . Muslim scholars claim that , and to hold them to that standard , the standard they have set themselves , is not hypocrisy .
 
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