Domination on Scions

[Snarks]

While the Scions are a very unique race, I find it a bit unfair that the Tier 3 mind spell, Domination, doesn't work on them. Is there any lore-wise reason that Domination wouldn't work on them?

 

[xienwolf]

Can't Dominate non-Living Targets. Intended primarily for Golems/Seige/Naval when implemented originally I imagine, but appropriate for Demons/Angels as well, and potentially fitting for the animated dead. Not sure how fitting for the thinking dead.

 

[Tarquelne]

Is there any lore-wise reason that Domination wouldn't work on them?

It'd be easy to rationalize, but nope.

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

Perhaps Scions unit class should be reclassified entirely.

For instance, when I made the unfortunate discovery that undead slaying doesn't effect them.

If only for ease of reference, changing their Undead status to "Animated".


As for Domination Versus The Scions, perhaps just a 30% save against it (on top of the normal 20% to fail) would be reasonable. Especially since the loss of Domination means you need to rebuy it with your next promotion to regain it. It would make dominating Scion units a tactical risk (Can I afford a 50% chance to lose this).

 

[Tarquelne]

Perhaps Scions unit class should be reclassified entirely.

For instance, when I made the unfortunate discovery that undead slaying doesn't effect them.

That'd be a bug. Undead Slaying is supposed to work against "PROMOTION_UNDEAD", and that's what they've got.

 

[Snarks]

So Undead Slaying not working on Scions is a bug but Domination is not?

 

[WarKirby]

As for Domination Versus The Scions, perhaps just a 30% save against it (on top of the normal 20% to fail) would be reasonable. Especially since the loss of Domination means you need to rebuy it with your next promotion to regain it. It would make dominating Scion units a tactical risk (Can I afford a 50% chance to lose this).

Didn't that penalty get removed?

I remember the internal discussion, I specifically said that losing the promotion was silly. Do you still lose Mind III on a failed domination cast ?

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

Yes. Last game I played, I had Hemah and Govanon fail a Dom roll, both (curse stack casting) against a Heroic Dragon Slayer with Magic Resistance.

I lost it.

Some of my soul got crushed.

 

[Snarks]

I believe Domination can only be resisted if the unit has magic resistance. Otherwise, I don't think there's any natural unit resistance.

 

[Tarquelne]

So Undead Slaying not working on Scions is a bug but Domination is not?

Correct.

Undead Slaying not working on Scions is a bug. It's supposed to, and I've looked at the XML and I've no idea why it wouldn't work.

Domination not working on Scions is not a bug. The spell isn't supposed to work on non-living targets, and apparently that's what's happening. It is, however, a balance issue.

 

[xienwolf]

Yeah, you shouldn't lose Mind III on a failed Domination anymore. Since you can only have 3 units dominated at a time now, it is self-limiting. The loss of promotion threat was intended to prevent you from capturing an entire army with a single unit.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I believe Domination can only be resisted if the unit has magic resistance. Otherwise, I don't think there's any natural unit resistance.

You are wrong. Units have a base resistance of 20%, and the Hero and Jade Torque promotions each gives another 20% resistance, the same as Magic Resistance. Valor gives 10% resistance. The Godslayer and Magic Immune promotions gives 100% resistance. Resistance is capped at 100%, regardless how may promotions the unit has.

Metamagic I and II on the caster each reduce the targets resistance by 5% and Metamagic III by 10%. Potency reduces the targets resistance by 10%, and Avatar by 50%, and Puppet increases their resistance by 20%. A unit's resistance cannot be reduced to below 5%.

(This is for normal FfH, not FF. I suspect that there may be more promotions that effect things, but I don't think the basic principle was changed.)

 

[xienwolf]

Correct, basic principle is unchanged. Base FfH also introduced something about being in a city, I think part of the defensive bonus counts for spell resistance? Whatever it was, I think we imported it, or I imagined it all. Eventually we'll have Shielding to serve such a role.

 

[darkarrow56]

... it doesnt work...they are free willed zombies.... i dont think they should be allowed to be dominated

 

[Iskar Jarak]

Not zombies, I've always seen them as more deathless and undying rather than traditional undead, meaning that they could be dominated, except those with the headless promotion, hard dominate someone who's head is in a jar.

 

[Tarquelne]

hard dominate someone who's head is in a jar.

They are supposed to be actually dead, not just deathless or undying. With the exception of K-the-Red, and maybe I just don't get just what you mean by the terms... anyway: They way they're handled within the game is pretty consistent in that regard, I believe - with the major exception of their free will. (Assuming they're not all lying. If you can even say an animated no-free-will-corpse is "lying". You pretty much just have to take their word for it, or not.)

But the being headless could indeed impose technical difficulties for Dominate.

And so could their being un-alive. We don't know exactly how magic works. Given that I'm inclined not to change anything unless there seems to be a significant balance problem. (ie, quite a few more people complain about it). The general immunity to mind effects fits with the whole "Undead" thing. And while they do break a lot of the rules, vis a vis shambling brain-eating monsters, being Undead would lack the fun of being Undead if they broke too many of those "rules".

 

[Iceciro]

I think in exchange for a simple promotion giving a big fat bonus to kicking the butt of a alot of thier units (undead slaying, which has always worked for me against AI scions) not being dominated is probably fine. Remember, in exchange, they're very vulnerable to a nasty spell known as Banishment.