Don't Really Understand the Armageddon Counter

[Tasunke]

I think blight should effect good players +1 unhealth per pop, neutral players +1 unhealth every 2 pop, and evil players +1 unhealth for every 3 pop

 

[Silmeran]

I've just finished my game as a Sheaim, and I was so disappointed that I most likely will play next game with AC turned off. I finished the game by retiring at turn ~850 when Armageddon killed both Abashi and Rosier (Rosier had 22 str). Before, at AC90, all my mages gone crazy when I was about to wipe out Elohim, and before that Blight destroyed my cities, so with -200 gold per turn I survived only thanks to marauding with Spectres. I even had to reload and delay the Blight because I couldn't finish Abashi because of it. Basically I lost the game because of AC. I honestly cannot see any interest of raising AC rather then flavour. I don't mind flavour until it kills me. At least Sheaim have Planar Gates and undeads, but what about other civs?
my suggestions:

- Blight has reduced effect (50%?) on Ashen Veil civs.
- Units spawned by AC events friendly to AV civs (or at least AV holy city owner).
- Enrage makes arcane and divine units to cast random spells and attack with summons rather then running somewhere and trying to melee some real combat unit. Casters are already huge pain to build and raise, please don't make using magic even more harder by wiping the work of many hundreds of turns.
- Armageddon does not affect heroes. Losing strong unit is bad, but losing a hero in a way you cannot prevent it is frustrating and makes me want to alt-f4. I spent 1 week and 800 turns fighting with all other world, with 7 civs who heavily out-teched me, and when I started to fight back AC killed me. I wish I could disable it mid-game.

AC mechanics needs reworking, it's very easy to increase by razing cities, there must be more ways to lower it. Evil civs must have more benefits from raising the counter, and Good ones should be punished more.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Evil civs must have more benefits from raising the counter, and Good ones should be punished more.

I agree with it in general. Although I don't mind the fact that even the Sheaim should handle the AC with care. Right now Clan of Embers and Doviello under Charadon suffer a bit less much too, because the Four Ponies ignore them. Makes sense for Clan, at least 'till they are Evil, makes less sense for Charadon.

ohim, and before that Blight destroyed my cities, so with -200 gold per turn I survived only thanks to marauding with Spectres.

Blight was bugged 'till the patch e/f, do you have it?

 

[Elyssaen]

- Blight has reduced effect (50%?) on Ashen Veil civs.
- Units spawned by AC events friendly to AV civs (or at least AV holy city owner).
- Enrage makes arcane and divine units to cast random spells and attack with summons rather then running somewhere and trying to melee some real combat unit. Casters are already huge pain to build and raise, please don't make using magic even more harder by wiping the work of many hundreds of turns.
- Armageddon does not affect heroes. Losing strong unit is bad, but losing a hero in a way you cannot prevent it is frustrating and makes me want to alt-f4. I spent 1 week and 800 turns fighting with all other world, with 7 civs who heavily out-teched me, and when I started to fight back AC killed me. I wish I could disable it mid-game..

I didn't know that AC 100 Apocalypse could kill heroes. AC 90 Wrath isn't supposed to be able to turn heroes insane, but I suppose I might just have been lucky that Apocalypse skipped my heroes. Saying that, it will still not affect the non-living.

I think the idea of Armageddon is that it's the end of life on Erebus. It's not the end of Good life on Erebus, it's not the triumph of Evil over Good. That's described by playing an Evil nation and winning a Conquest victory.

Armageddon is the end of days. Other than a few little differences, like the Horsemen ignoring Barbarian nations (which I think should be changed), Armageddon will destroy everybody. That's how it should be.

From your post, I have to question why you bothered with Abashi. He's a late game non-hero world unit. If you're ramping up the AC intentionally, always get the Meshabber of Dis. He's stronger than Abashi, he's available much earlier in the game and he's not affected by any of the Armageddon.

Yes, he'll cost 5000 compared to Abashi's 360 , but turn technology off once you've got Corruption of the Spirit and Infernal Pact, or otherwise once you hit Blight and keep increasing the AC. Technology will stop mattering. You'll have enough gold in your treasury to buy him in one turn, probably just in time to slaughter the Horsemen when they arrive.

Still, that's a very specialised Sheaim strategy. Remember: if you intentionally ramp the AC up, don't expect to be the one shining empire that lives in the end of days. You'll just be the last to fall, and that's how you have to play.

If Apocalypse kills heroes then I think that should be changed. The AC is designed so that it's difficult to keep it low – only the Elohim can do it. I think it could be designed better overall. Almost always increasing is fine, but as well as an unbugged Blight the Horsemen have to be rebalanced. Not useless in late game, not overpowered (or maybe leave this) in early game. To keep them non-useless they should probably arrive with an army (hint: use Sheaim Planar Gate unit types) of an appropriate level of technology.

 

[Silmeran]

From your post, I have to question why you bothered with Abashi. He's a late game non-hero world unit. If you're ramping up the AC intentionally, always get the Meshabber of Dis. He's stronger than Abashi, he's available much earlier in the game and he's not affected by any of the Armageddon.

As I mentioned, I built Abashi before the Blight (AC30). Meshabber available at AC70. No, I didn't raised AC intentionally, it blown up when I started to raze my enemies cities. I didn't had enough units to keep them, and I wanted quick conquest raid, so I had to.

I think the idea of Armageddon is that it's the end of life on Erebus. It's not the end of Good life on Erebus, it's not the triumph of Evil over Good. That's described by playing an Evil nation and winning a Conquest victory.

Armageddon is the end of days. Other than a few little differences, like the Horsemen ignoring Barbarian nations (which I think should be changed), Armageddon will destroy everybody. That's how it should be.

Ok, if Armageddon designed to be bad for everyone when everyone should get some efficient ways to counter it, not only Elohim. What could I do, raze my own AV cities?

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Remember: if you intentionally ramp the AC up don't expect to be the one shining empire that lives in the end of days, you'll just be the last to fall.

This should be put into the tips for the game.

What could I do, raze my own AV cities?

Almost. You could switch religions and then remove the AV from your cities.

 

[Emptiness]

The AC is designed so that it's difficult to keep it low – only the Elohim can do it. I think it could be designed better overall. Almost always increasing is fine,

Stephanos never spawns in most of my games, and many of them never have Blight. The AI isn't able to intelligently drive the AC in either direction, so if I make any effort it goes where I let it go. There's a bit of a learning curve, to catch on to what raises the AC, and an adjustment period after changing one's play-style accordingly; after that the AC is much less threatening. Here are some tips:


1) Avoid razing cities, unless they follow Ashen Veil.

Spoiler :

The larger the city the more the AC will increase if you raze it. Enemy cities should be captured and held until you force peace, then any cities you don't want should be given back to them. You'll usually get a permanent positive diplomacy modifier for doing this, as an added bonus.

Instead of burning down your opponents, capture their cities to force them to capitulate. Then they will join you in future wars, making you more dangerous than if you had razed all their cities.

Razing AV cities will lower the AC, however, with more reduction for larger cities. Seek out AV cities and torch them, even if they are in a spot you like.

2) Spread AV to anyone you really want to burn.

Spoiler :

If you really must raze the cities of one of your opponents, then proper preparation can turn this into an opportunity to lower the AC.

Spreading AV to a city raises the AC by one point. Burning an AV city reduces the AC by an amount based on its size. So for large cities you can lower the AC by first spreading AV to that city and then razing it. Make nice with your most hated foe, spread AV to all their large cities (which will initially raise the AC), and then betray your 'friend' and put those cities to the torch. The AC will collapse.

3) Sanctify.

Spoiler :

The Life I spell Sanctify willl lower the AC by a point when used on a graveyard or ruins. Anyone who plans to break cities should get access to it, and use it on each ruin they create.

Early in the game you may encounter situations where razing lots of small cities is necessary or desirable. Access to Sanctify makes this okay, because that increase can be offset. Try to save any ruins that you create until you can remove them with that spell. A lot of early-game sins can be forgiven in this way.

Keep an eye out for opportunities to Sanctify ruins that other civs create. Each one you can catch will help keep the AC down.

4) Build the Prophecy of Ragnarok.

Spoiler :

Yeah, you heard me. Each unit built in its city raises the AC by one. Build the wonder in a city you don't plan to use for unit production, and then don't build units there. This may seem like a waste, but it can be difficult to stop the AC from spiraling out of control when an AI on the other side of the world builds it and starts cranking out units with Prophecy Mark. Take control of the issue by ensuring that this cannot happen.

Alternatively, if you are beaten to completion of the wonder, find out where it is and burn it and the city it is in to the ground.

5) Choose AC reducing event options.

Spoiler :

Before you choose a response to any random event be sure to read what all the options do, and make note of whether the option you want to choose will raise or lower the AC. Whenever possible, choose options that lower the AC.

If you are well in control of the AC then you may be able to get away with the (very) occasional AC-increasing event option, but don't risk it if you are having trouble keeping the AC low.

6) Beware War.

Spoiler AC event spoiler within :

If in spite of your efforts the AC does increase enough for Buboes to spawn then you've got to kill him fast. He wields the sword War, which raises the AC by one for each living unit he kills. If you let him ride around killing whatever the AI happens to throw at him the AC can increase very quickly. Do whatever it takes to kill him (using non-living units whenever possible).

Once he's dead, take War and hide it where none of your opponents' living units can find it (a hawk works well for this purpose). If you find yourself in a situation where you must fight lots of non-living units you may be willing to risk using it, but be careful.

An increasing AC is supposed to be a bad thing, and Armageddon is supposed to be painful. Toning it down would weaken its purpose, and the flavor of the mod. If you don't want Armageddon then change your play as needed to prevent it from happening. If you decide you want to make it happen then expect to pay the piper.

 

[Breunor]

A simple tactic to keep the AC from going up to be the first to research the AV religion! I almost always try to do this, even when I have no intention of using it. If you build it first it is less likely to be used by the AI (I think, I may be wrong about this) and much easier to reduce its spread.

Best iwshes,

Breunor

 

[Emptiness]

That works pretty well if there are already other religions around, and most of the cities in the world have at least one religion in them already. If AV is the first religion researched then passive religion spread will mean lots of civs adopting AV, which is catastrophic.

You can achieve a similar effect by researching and spreading any religion. Once the AI adopts a religion it often doesn't bother researching a different one.

Founding AV and OO does allow you to prevent the associated wonders from being created, each of which raises the AC slightly. In the long-term this is a small amount, so I would say that going out of your way to do it is unnecessary.