Double Scout?

[azzaman333]

I go with anything from 0-2 scouts depending on how the surrounding area looks.

 

[Buccaneer]

i think the standard, most stable build order is

scout -> scout -> shrine -> monument

its realy just a solid start. the 2 scouts will net some nice goodies and happyness from wonders

How do you define "most stable"? Something that was routinely done in vanilla? I believe the best start in post-patch G&K (on standard maps) would be scout -> worker -> shrine. Got to get working those luxuries and food hexes as soon as possible.

 

[Gucumatz]

If I am Spain or America I will always build 2 scouts first. Otherwise I won't. I still find that with a warrior and a scout - I can get access to enough gold most of the time quickly enough to buy a 2nd scout without having to miss more time without a monument.

(In multiplayer its what I have noticed is most standard too. Build a scout and then a monument (Although not everyone buys a 2nd scout). You can't afford to be behind momentum wise - and once again I think multi is the ultimate test)

 

[Gucumatz]

And Buccaneer - A lot of people just steal their first worker from a city state [First war on city state has no impact on other city states, although it may upset neighboring empires sometimes.] Its always quicker and more efficient

 

[Moriarte]

I find two workers before turn 30 more useful than one worker around turn 30. Generally.

Especially in domination games.

I can even have two workers before turn 20 sometimes, when i produce one and buy another with exchanged GPT.

Depends on terrain though. For example, it would be extrememly useful when you have wheat, forests, salt (and such) in your vicinity.

 

[Gucumatz]

Yea some people love a 2 worker start too. Especially if you go tradition its nice - in MP you can't buy workers from exchanged GPT/embassies so its sometimes worth stealing 2 early workers and taking the diplo/influence hit with random city states (its not all of them - and the couple you do get the penalty with though you just don't focus on, that simple).

 

[Buccaneer]

And Buccaneer - A lot of people just steal their first worker from a city state [First war on city state has no impact on other city states, although it may upset neighboring empires sometimes.] Its always quicker and more efficient

Which is something I have not and would not do. I, however, do keep a worker that a Barb had captured.

 

[Voodoo111]

I find two workers before turn 30 more useful than one worker around turn 30. Generally.

Especially in domination games.

I can even have two workers before turn 20 sometimes, when i produce one and buy another with exchanged GPT.

Depends on terrain though. For example, it would be extrememly useful when you have wheat, forests, salt (and such) in your vicinity.

Definitely my dilemma here. Double scout delays my workers, even if by a mere few turns, and it seems like the more early workers the better. As Buccaneer states below, I generally do not steal workers... however I will keep them early if I find one in an occupied barb camp.

I haven't really tried a GPT exchange yet to buy one, I may try that...I am such a miser with my early Gold tho, I think to my detriment on some occasions. I read in these threads where peeps are buying settlers, workers, rushing libraries, upgrading CB's etc... and I'm like WTH ya gettin' all that gold ??

Do people just completely ignore happiness in the beginning and sell off their luxes? I hate the red unhappy!!! I do everything I can to avoid it tbh, unless I am going DOM.

Seldom do I rush buy a settler as well, something that I know many people do. I mean 500 gold early on is a big friggin' hit. That's one library and almost 1/2 of another, or almost 2 workers....seems like a lot of gold just to plop a city down 7 or 8 turns quicker...when ya could jus hammer the settler and rush buy the library or a worker for that city?

Anyways, lot of good ideas/suggestions here. Thanks for the input!

 

[Matthew.]

Do people just completely ignore happiness in the beginning and sell off their luxes? I hate the red unhappy!!! I do everything I can to avoid it tbh, unless I am going DOM.

If you are quick enough (which I think was Moriarte's point) you can sell off an extra luxury and it will turn around before you need the happiness. T20 + 30 = T50 when you get the happiness back. Pretty difficult to fall under happiness with Monarchy by T50.

 

[Voodoo111]

If you are quick enough (which I think was Moriarte's point) you can sell off an extra luxury and it will turn around before you need the happiness. T20 + 30 = T50 when you get the happiness back. Pretty difficult to fall under happiness with Monarchy by T50.

Aye, definitely...I DO sell off my early luxes before I need the happiness, usually get a couple deals...sometimes I have to take some GPT in combination w/ lump sum as that early some AI's just dont have the cash... but once that first deal is completed, I find that generally I need the happiness then..new cities comin out being the main cause. I could get my worker out a bit quicker, foregoing the scout, and possibly getting a lux sale sooner.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I find two workers before turn 30 more useful than one worker around turn 30. Generally.

I've noticed recently that CS workers appear earlier than they used to. It's a bit inconsistent. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But 2 workers before turn 30 does not conflict with double scout if you buy your first somewhere at 15-20 and steal the second from CS.

Do people just completely ignore happiness in the beginning and sell off their luxes?

Ehm... yes. Few turns of unhappiness are not critical and if you settle on top of luxuries even this can be avoided.

Seldom do I rush buy a settler as well, something that I know many people do. I mean 500 gold early on is a big friggin' hit. That's one library and almost 1/2 of another, or almost 2 workers....seems like a lot of gold just to plop a city down 7 or 8 turns quicker...when ya could jus hammer the settler and rush buy the library or a worker for that city?

A city >> 1 1/4 library. Building settlers stalls the growth. Which is ironically the reason for unhappiness being a bad thing. However, if you're unhappy already, then it's a good time to build settlers.

 

[Gimasag3]

It depends on the terrain. If there's lots of hills or forests, and you want a wide empire, then, yeah, go for it. I would buy them if you have enough money from ruins though.

 

[Buccaneer]

And the reason to sell your luxuries asap (hence, the early worker) is so you can buy a settler asap, which is used to build a city around 2-4 more luxuries. Happiness problem solved.

 

[Voodoo111]

And the reason to sell your luxuries asap (hence, the early worker) is so you can buy a settler asap, which is used to build a city around 2-4 more luxuries. Happiness problem solved.

I hear ya. The last few games I have played, finding a place for my second city that contains 4 luxes seems laughable to me atm . Playing as Theo in my last game the best place to settle my second city was 10 hexes East in the desert, next to a mountain w/ no luxes. Obviously that was a unique situation. No luxes other than my cap 20 hexes in any direction

I will try to buy a settler from the git-go next time and see how it works.

 

[Voodoo111]

Ehm... yes. Few turns of unhappiness are not critical and if you settle on top of luxuries even this can be avoided.


A city >> 1 1/4 library. Building settlers stalls the growth. Which is ironically the reason for unhappiness being a bad thing. However, if you're unhappy already, then it's a good time to build settlers.

Indeed, I find myself settling on luxes a lot more than I used to. I guess at some point tho, you wanna have happiness under control, maybe I am too worried about being unhappy in the earlier stages than I should be. I do go red, but usually try to keep it to a "few turns" if at all possible. It just seems like the growth rate penalty is large for being unhappy that at some point ya want to have happiness under control for a "tall" empire.

I will try a more unhappy start next game, focus on early workers, and to to get my sat cities out a bit sooner to shave some turns off my endgame.

 

[iconocast]

How do you define "most stable"? Something that was routinely done in vanilla? I believe the best start in post-patch G&K (on standard maps) would be scout -> worker -> shrine. Got to get working those luxuries and food hexes as soon as possible.

i guess by most stable i mean that in general it will net u the most consistent results.
i play on large maps so mabey 1 scout is great on standard or below.

scout->worker-> shrine has a few disadvantages imho. thos being 2 scouts will get u citys states and wonders witch add up to faith, gold, and happiness. plus ruins on top of that.

the worker u can get from liberty sp, barb camp, enslave a worker (some civs are realy good at doing this), even buy it or hard build it at a later date while ur waiting for lux tech. delaying the shrine can realy put u in a bad spot wit faith, and personaly i prefer to get a pantheon asap even if i dont go wit a religion.

 

[Fluffball]

Definitely my dilemma here. Double scout delays my workers, even if by a mere few turns, and it seems like the more early workers the better. As Buccaneer states below, I generally do not steal workers... however I will keep them early if I find one in an occupied barb camp.

I haven't really tried a GPT exchange yet to buy one, I may try that...I am such a miser with my early Gold tho, I think to my detriment on some occasions. I read in these threads where peeps are buying settlers, workers, rushing libraries, upgrading CB's etc... and I'm like WTH ya gettin' all that gold ??

Do people just completely ignore happiness in the beginning and sell off their luxes? I hate the red unhappy!!! I do everything I can to avoid it tbh, unless I am going DOM.

Seldom do I rush buy a settler as well, something that I know many people do. I mean 500 gold early on is a big friggin' hit. That's one library and almost 1/2 of another, or almost 2 workers....seems like a lot of gold just to plop a city down 7 or 8 turns quicker...when ya could jus hammer the settler and rush buy the library or a worker for that city?

Anyways, lot of good ideas/suggestions here. Thanks for the input!

You can pretty much ignore happiness at the start, especially if going for an ICS style of game.
As long as you don't go below 10 unhappiness you want to be pumping out as many cities as possible and as early as possible.
After my first couple of units i do tend to be more inclined to buy units, including settlers although this has become much harder in the early game as they have inclined the AI to buy units with it's excess gold rather than simply storing it up so they have little lump sum gold and because of the extra units they also have less gpt floating around which means very early on especially it can be hard to even get full value for a sale by combining lump sum and gpt never mind a full lump sum, especially for a luxury.

When heading down the buying of settlers route and in an ICS i tend to aim to plant cities next to things i can sell though. If you plant on a city by a luxury and a strategic resource you have pretty much paid for the settler by planting the city.

What you buy or don't buy though depends on your situation.e.g. sometimes it better to buy the building and build the settler, sometimes it is the other way around but in the early game though it is generally best to spend all your money to build yourself up as quickly as possible rather than storing it up unless you have something very specific in mind your saving up for.



On the scout front.

I always build a scout first. If or when i build a 2nd or more depends on what my scout discovers.


The first scouts job is primarily to get a rough idea of what is out there. Roughly where the edges of the land are and where the other civs are and thus will often leave large tracts of unexplored terrain behind.

While it is doing that i will usually use my first warrior to do the main scouting around my start area to look for new city spots, what resources are nearby and more closely check out neighbours.

If there is a lot of rough terrain near the start area and the warrior is finding it slow going i will tend to push out a second scout early on to scout the nearby area before pushing it out to more methodically explore the terrain left in the wake of the first scout.
If i have a close [likely aggressive neighbour] i will delay the second scout until i feel i can defend myself from attack.

If i am playing a large map and find i still have a lot of territory to explore once i have my empire settled in i may push out a 3rd scout as they will cost very little to build/buy at that point and will greatly help me find all those extra natural wonders and CS's.

If scouts die or get cut off (and therefore deleted) i may build extra to replace them depending on what is left to explore.

 

[adwcta]

I look at it this way, the faster I meet CSs, the more gold I get, faster, which lets me buy my settler faster. So, a scout is just an early investment into your first rush-buy settler. If it looks like a second scout can grab 100-gold (or equivalent value) worth of things on the map before my first settler pops, then I go double-scout. One thing I love about scouts is that you can get the vision upgrade as your first upgrade. So, if my first scout dies, or gets trapped... I'll build my next scout after I get open-boarders and a barracks up to go deep into AI's territory to see all their cities/terrain/resources.

I send my warrior on a "near" exploration trail (basically to reveal all land tiles within 10 of my capital; to find good land for the 2nd city) so he's close enough to occupy barbs once his route is up so they don't disturb my worker (usually before my first archer is up).

 

[The Pilgrim]

Indeed, I find myself settling on luxes a lot more than I used to. I guess at some point tho, you wanna have happiness under control, maybe I am too worried about being unhappy in the earlier stages than I should be. I do go red, but usually try to keep it to a "few turns" if at all possible. It just seems like the growth rate penalty is large for being unhappy that at some point ya want to have happiness under control for a "tall" empire.

I will try a more unhappy start next game, focus on early workers, and to to get my sat cities out a bit sooner to shave some turns off my endgame.

You shouldn't force unhappiness, of course. The point is, you dislike unhappiness because it slows down the growth. While building settlers stops it completely. The earlier you get those cities out, the earlier they start paying off.

 

[Arilian]

if you start scout-scout, and tradition, you probably do not have to build monuments at all.