Double Your Pleasure

[NightStorm]

Originally posted by shultster
Along with this, the pictures or icons for what's been added to this mod do not show up in the civilopedia within the game.

Have you downloaded the civilopedia buildings files that were added about halfway through this thread? Once those are downloaded and installed, you will be able to see these.

Also, you won't see anything in the build queue until I finish those images, just so you know.

 

[Kal-el]

Originally posted by shultster
To start, I want to say this is a terrific mod. The author is a genius and has come up with some great ideas to make Civ3 a more enjoyable game to play.

Well, thank you. I think Genius might be going a bit too far (stop it, false modesty is so unbecoming )

But seriously folks, I think Comen is probably right about the mining issue.

Originally posted by RobO
Food/Growth:
The implication here is that you need a bonus food resource or flood plains to be able to expand, or access to an improved government (which will take time), or you can go on a conquering spree.

I'm not sure this is a major problem, though it will stop an AI civ from expanding in a number of cases. Balancing growth and food production is very difficult.

This, IMO, is the hardest part of the game to reconcile. Trying to balance growth before and after the discovery of higher forms of govt.

I think the current system most accurately reflects the development of civilizations, and puts a premium on choosing where you are going to place those early cities. Much like in the early years of civilizations, only those nations that had the good fortune to be in a fertile location early were able to blossom. Indus River Valley, Nile River Valley, Tigris and Euphrates, Yangtze, etc.

Originally posted by RobO
The Brave costs the same as a spearman and is better (2/2/1 instead of 1/2/1). Why should I ever build spearmen if I can build the Brave unit I think something needs to change here - why not make the Brave 2/1/1 ?

Good point, you have to remember that the brave was first developed before the advent of the HP system. The brave should probably be 2/1/1 with +2 hp or he could be 2/2/1 with +1 HP but costs more than the spearman. Militaristic civs then have the choice, they can put a little more time and effort into producing a Brave or they can go the cheap route and build the spearman.

Originally posted by RobO
Serfs/Workers at start are in many cases out of a job because several civs start with neither The Wheel (Commercial) nor Mining (Industrious) and Irrigation comes much later.

Yeah, that is a problem. One option is to just add them to your initial city. And build a worker later.

Originally posted by RobO
Mining can in a way be considered as an advanced technique, just as Irrigation is. … It is noteworthy that you can access strategic resources like Iron without having to mine them. I like to think of "Mining" as a kind of industrial exploitation that is probably available from late middle ages. So, I propose that the mining tech be (re)moved (and Industrious civs be given Masonry), and that "Mining" (preferably with another name) be moved into the middle age. It would also be appropriate to change the mine graphics to something representing a workshop.

I don’t think I will remove the mining tech itself as I like it as a prereq for bronze and then iron working, plus it allows copper and iron to become visible on the map even if you can’t make any units with them yet. But I do like the idea of removing the mining ability to the industrial era, available with steam power to represent the improved drilling tools and techniques available after the invention of the steam engine. I am reminded of the story of John Henry the Steel driving man.

A concern would be that workers would really have nothing to do now and you wouldn’t be able to log forests. So, in order to keep some utility for the worker units I don’t think I will do this. If only we could add worker jobs.

Originally posted by RobO btw, why not rename Irrigation to Farming?

Very Good Point. This will help clear up some of the confusion we have been seeing as to just why it is not available until after crop rotation.

Originally posted by RobO
Startup: … Serf should be replaced with a warrior. The Serf will only be useful if you have roadbuilding, and it would also serve to slow expansion down even more.

I really like the serf unit. I think the serf is more valuable than you give him credit for. The industrious civ basically gets the laborer two eras ahead of anybody else.

 

[Kal-el]

just a note to anyone who may read GIDustin's post just above and wonder why tehn does the DyP not have more resources. I have talked with GIDustin and he now agrees that only 36 resources will show up on the map.

 

[NightStorm]

Hey Kal-el, how about a little rework on the resources.pcx file. Few of the icons look more realistic this way (I think )

Also, do we need jade as a resource, since you have jade exchange as a building??

 

[Kal-el]

I think you've got clams in your coal.

When it comes down to it, people are going to change the reource icons to match their preference. I like the oil and I would like to see the Uranium a litle bit more vibrant (easily fixed). But I don't think you see too many bearskin rugs lying about the woods nor do you see naturally occuring bottles of wine. I know, I know, you don't see aluminum cans or rubber tires growing in the wild either, but when possible I prefer to use the raw resources. Sometimes it would be too difficult to figure out what the raw resource is, e.g. incense and rubber. Why do people like the metal bars?

Since when do I have the Jade Exchange as a building?

 

[NightStorm]

Jade Exchange was in the .zip file you sent me of the buildings that needed worked on. It isn't in the .bic file though. Was just wondering. This is what was sent to me by you in the .zip file.

 

[Kal-el]

hmmm, very interesting. don't remember every seeing that before. well, no matter, it is not in the bic, sorry for the confusion.

by the way, I will edit the resource image to use the uranium (after some editing) and oil that you posted.

 

[Kal-el]

are people interested in an artillary unit between catapults and cannons?

I am thinking wither trebuchet or bombard.

Thoughts, preferences?

 

[Ed O'War]

Originally posted by Kal-el
are people interested in an artillary unit between catapults and cannons?

I am thinking wither trebuchet or bombard.

Thoughts, preferences?

If I had to choose, I think the trebuchet would be most appropriate. It would be a good bombardment unit to put between the catapult and the cannon, make it available with Engineering or maybe Chivalry or Feudalism.

 

[Plux]

Hi, I haven't read the whole thread (only first and last pages) and don't have any previous mod-experience but I've played with this mod, and these are my comments on it:

General:
- AI has trouble with new food/citizen-ratio. Sometimes they whip too much and need entertainers with size 1 cities (even capital/last city), which are then abandoned because of food-shortage. This way they are completely suicidal in times of war. It would be better if a city could get 3 food on center tile (if it is grassland/plains/hills/other nutrient stuff), so that it always can remain size 1, and has better chance of growing size 3 (for settlers).

It would be nice if somehow AI would know to avoid building desert and tundra-towns, as they will almost never grow past size 2.

Units:
- Brave is a bit too powerful so early in the game (esp. compared to spearman). And has ability to airdrop??
- Ranger, Brave, Crusader need own pix to help distinguish them.
- Horseman is the same (only mounted and not wheeled) and more expensive than chariot
- Convoy and Motorized Transport are useless (are they?)
- Battle animation for ships is not in the right direction
- AI likes to build archers/longbowmen as primary attacking units. Dunno if this is because lack of resources for swordsmen or if it's a fault.

Improvements/Wonders
- Pyramids are too expensive now that they only deliver obelisks. I'd say halve them 20/200
- Theater is a bit expensive.. 60 should be 6

So far played until ca 1750, got to knights/crusaders/explosives (which I usually also do), so I guess most rates are ok. AI has trouble keeping up though

Forgot to mention I find it a great mod. Would be nice if most things can get really integrated (like pix, civ-entries, AI-gameplay)

 

[RobO]

In response to Kal-el's response:

Food/Growth: I know this is difficult to balance out - I have tried it myself and gave up. I guess the current setup will work, but I'll have to try it out some more. It focuses the early game on access to food, as that is the limiting factor for growth, but that may be entirely reasonable.

Serfs/Workers at start: I think you misunderstood me, and I also was not aware of the difference between the two. I was talking about having a starting worker that has nothing to do because you can neither mine, irrigate nor build roads. I tried using a starting warrior instead yesterday, and reverted to the worker because it is more interesting to play that way. It does imply that you will want to research mining or roadbuilding asap, though.

Mining: I'm trying it out now, having made it available with Explosives. I gave Masonry to the Industrious civs but I suppose it could just as well be mining. I usually don't have a lot of time to play, so this is unfortunately not a fast process. I have found so far that I'm so busy producing food that production is severely limited. I expect that is the same for all the other civs. I played England, and my worker has been plenty busy making roads. Perhaps that industrious serf is too efficient at start?

While playing I noticed a few other things

The Ranger is must too fast for my comfort. I like to explore and dislike having everything exposed in the blink of an eye . After some experimentation I gave him a movement of 3 and removed the "terrain as roads" ability. In fact, I would personally probably prefer to revert to the Scout and make the Scout exclusive to the expansionist civs, but I can always mod the mod myself . I do think however that you should consider the 3 movement points instead of letting him zip along on invisible roads.

Road movement: In the process of working with the Ranger I temporarily set the road movement rate to 2. I had the feleing that it slowed down everything too much, so went for the solution described above instead. It is however an interesting thought, but quite radical. It would mean that most of the land units with 2+ movement points should have their movement points increased, and would allow for a greater degree of differentiation between units. Its not a change to be done lightly, however. What do y'all think about this wild and crazy idea? Nuts?

Resource pics: I don't recognize the Marble pic - I think this one and the Stone should show an angular 3D block that is white/shiny (for marble) and sand-colored (for stone). Have you ever played Pharaoh? The blocks of stone in that game are exactly what I would like to have. It should be easy to draw with some nice shadows for someone with the proper skills. Or the Marble could be some slabs/tiles that are stacked and slightly shifted. Anyway, please change the stone even if you keep the marble.

 

[shultster]

Thanks all for your informative replies.

Mining - Yes, the problem I've been having with mining must have been because you can no longer mine on grasslands or plains. This will definitely make the game go much slower since it will take so much longer to build units or improvments. As a note, when my workers were set to automatic mode, they would always chop down the forests. If that is the norm and you can only mine in a forest, then you would never be able to mine. I naturally assume you can mine in the hills and mountains however.

Text descriptions - Having to switch back and forth between the readme file and the game, or print it out is terrible annoying. But I suppose if I were to look on the bright side, once I've learned about all the new entries for this mod, then I won't need to constantly refer to the readme file.

Sorry about this but I couldn't figure out how to add a quote while posting a reply but it was something like this:

Have you downloaded the civilopedia buildings files that were added about halfway through this thread? Once those are downloaded and installed, you will be able to see these.

Also, you won't see anything in the build queue until I finish those images, just so you know.

I will look for this file so I can download and install it.

I really don't mean to criticize this terrific mod pack, but I feel like it's necessary to read each and every post so I don't miss a single file that I'm supposed to download. Maybe I missed it somewhere, but is there a way this can be avoided? I understand someone was building a homepage for Double Your Pleasure. I'll have to go back through previous posts and see if I can find it.

Again, Kal-el, great mod pack and my salute to you and the others for the time and effort that's been put into this.

Shultster

 

[shultster]

Okie dokie....I went back through the pages of posts and found:

http://civ3.bernskov.com/install.guide.htm

I was able to download the 3, not 2, but 3 (and certainly not 4) additional building graphics. Just as a note, there were duplicates between the files and they were different sizes so I just chose to overwrite the older file. Sorry I didn't write down which ones were duplicated so I could add them to this post.

If I may make a suggestion to simplify the downloading process for this mod. Instead of posting new files to this thread, upload them to the previously mentioned web site. This would save everyone a great deal of time especially since this thread has so many posts and replies now.

Again...thanks and terrific work

Shultster

 

[Isak]

Hello All

Sorry, I've been away for a while, but I'm now back in release managing business.

Just to clarify:

There will be a new release within the next couple of days. This release will make all currently finished files available in a one-file download (1 file....not 2, not 0) and in a split up set, to help the poor modem users a bit

About the Reference - I'm compiling a complete reference for all buildings, units, terrain, wonders etc. etc - with a bit of luck, I'll have it finished by the end of the week. (Note: I'm usually pessimistic when handing out release dates - so don't be surprised if it gets finished sooner)

And shultster: Thanks for the confidence, and keep up the good beta-testing

 

[bernskov]

When Isak has the 1 (one) file ready it will be avaiable on http://civ3.bernskov.com
There will be a better todo list where Kal-EL will post which elements is being worked on and so on. (Maybe finished tonight)
If any of you have ideas that needed to be on that web please tell me so it will give you a central place of info for this great Mod.
Please be advices that the current install guide will be rewritten when Isak has done the Release Manager bit

reagrds
Bernskov (ub@bernskov.com)

 

[Comen]

After some testing, I think I have an idea about that bug I mentioned a few days ago.

It seems like the improvements with both coastal flag and near water flag had some problems with geting along with the harbor, which only has a coastal flag.

The point is that sometimes when I built the harbor first, I couldn't build the others afterwards, but not always.

If I built the port or the shipyard first, I can always build the harbor just fine.

The point is, it is only to remove the near water flag on coastal installations.

BTW, why is district courthouse flagged as near water?

 

[Kal-el]

First I would like to announce that today is my last day of classes ever for Law School!!! [dance] Yahooo!!! This is of course bad news for the rest of you as I will now be focusing on exams and the bar (yikes, that's no fun.)

On to other (more important) matters

Originally posted by Plux
General:
It would be better if a city could get 3 food on center tile (if it is grassland/plains/hills/other nutrient stuff), so that it always can remain size 1, and has better chance of growing size 3 (for settlers).

talk to Firaxis about this. The 2 food on the center tile is hardcoded into the game.

Originally posted by Plux
It would be nice if somehow AI would know to avoid building desert and tundra-towns, as they will almost never grow past size 2.

that would be nice. Tundra towns should never get past size 1 and should generally starve.

Originally posted by Plux
Units:
- Brave is a bit too powerful so early in the game (esp. compared to spearman). And has ability to airdrop??

In the soon to be released v.0.3 the Brave will cost 3 compared to the spearman 2.

Originally posted by Plux
- Ranger, Brave, Crusader need own pix to help distinguish them.

People are working on the Brave and the Crusader

Originally posted by Plux
- Horseman is the same (only mounted and not wheeled) and more expensive than chariot

Not being wheeled can be a serious advantage, it all depends on your surrounding terrain.

Originally posted by Plux
- Battle animation for ships is not in the right direction

Which one

Originally posted by Plux
Improvements/Wonders
- Pyramids are too expensive now that they only deliver obelisks. I'd say halve them 20/200

Only the obelisk? Having free obelisk’s in all your cities is a huge boost to your starting culture, to be able to jump to the next sphere of influence within ten turns of founding the city is a tremendous advantage. If anything the obelisk itself may need to be more expensive.

Thanks for your comments, I am glad you like the mod so far. It will only get better from here.

 

[NightStorm]

Wow, the web site looks great B. Guess I will abandon my design and go with yours! Good Job!

 

[Kal-el]

Comen,

The District Court is flagged as must be near water simply to limit the number of district courthouses you have. There should be fewer district Courthouses than city courthouses.

Another goal of the Mod is to have your coastal and river cities develop more than your interior cities. This is more representative of how cities actually grow. Just look around, all the major cities throughout most of the worlds History were either costal cities or had access to the coast via a major river. I was just trying to emulate that phenomenon in the mod.

Originally posted by RobO
In response to Kal-el's response:

Food/Growth:…It focuses the early game on access to food, as that is the limiting factor for growth, but that may be entirely reasonable.

That is definitely one of the deciding factors in the design choice.

Serfs/Workers at start: … It does imply that you will want to research mining or roadbuilding asap, though.

Again, I wanted to make these first tier techs very valuable to make choosing starting civs more interesting. Do you want to be able to build roads right from the start or would you rather have some other advantage over your neighbors?

While playing I noticed a few other things

The Ranger is must too fast for my comfort. I like to explore and dislike having everything exposed in the blink of an eye . After some experimentation I gave him a movement of 3 and removed the "terrain as roads" ability. In fact, I would personally probably prefer to revert to the Scout and make the Scout exclusive to the expansionist civs, but I can always mod the mod myself . I do think however that you should consider the 3 movement points instead of letting him zip along on invisible roads.

The problem is that if you give him three MPs there is never a time when he becomes obsolete. As it stands now with his road “treat all as roads” there is little incentive to build him after you have roads and the scout can move 6 over those. As you know it’s all a matter of balance. What if the ranger had no defensive value and the scout had 1?

Road movement: In the process of working with the Ranger I temporarily set the road movement rate to 2. I had the feleing that it slowed down everything too much, so went for the solution described above instead. It is however an interesting thought, but quite radical. It would mean that most of the land units with 2+ movement points should have their movement points increased, and would allow for a greater degree of differentiation between units. Its not a change to be done lightly, however. What do y'all think about this wild and crazy idea? Nuts?

This was actually discussed by Kryten in the Alexander the Great Mod that he is doing the animations for. I think it is a good idea, but it would require some serious fleshing out. If we eventually went this way I think it would really clear up your ranger issue.

Resource pics: I don't recognize the Marble pic - I think this one and the Stone should show an angular 3D block that is white/shiny (for marble) and sand-colored (for stone). Have you ever played Pharaoh? The blocks of stone in that game are exactly what I would like to have. It should be easy to draw with some nice shadows for someone with the proper skills. Or the Marble could be some slabs/tiles that are stacked and slightly shifted. Anyway, please change the stone even if you keep the marble.

Put together a stone image and let me see what you are talking about. The marble image is marble columns and slabs.

 

[Isak]

Fantastic Comen, I think you've solved the harbor bug.

Nightstorm, since you were unable to produce the bug previously (thereby thwarting my otherwise brilliant theory ) could you perhaps try it again, but this time start by building the harbor and a port or shipyard afterwards - anyone else willing to try, please go ahead, I really desperately want to remove this bug from the mod

Kal-El:
Big Congratulations: If I'm ever about to get into any kind of legal trouble, I'll give you a call first

And don't worry about the mod either - there's plenty of helping hands around here - all you need to do is come back once the mod is finished, and put your name on the box