Double Your Pleasure

[Bamspeedy]

ok, both tests? or just the adding in new bonus resources?

I've never added in new resources before. But I'll give it a try.

 

[Kal-el]

Could you do a test with regular civ, and then test it with DyP? That should give you some good information.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Well, I just tried the DyP rules on Marla's map. First I got 34 of each bonus resource.

Then I added the new popular bonus resource known as 'Beer' .

I was wondering why I got 0 beer, but then realized I forgot to re-distribute (randomize) the resources again allowing beer to show up on the map.

This time I only got 32 of each resource!

Now I'll try this on the DyP 180 x 180 map and see if I get the same results.

 

[Bamspeedy]

On the Dyp map I started out with 13 of each bonus resource.

After I added beer I only got 12 of each resource!

So, yes, as you add more bonus resources, the total of each individual resource goes down, but the total # of ALL bonus resources stay about the same.

I am surprised though by how many more resources Marla's map got. Her map is bigger, but I didn't think that much bigger.

Edit: Comparing this to the # of resources on the DyP without randomizing the resources (leaving them the way Kal-El had them placed on the map originally) :

Game - 49
Seal - 17
Cattle - 90
Sheep - 96
Pigs - 16
Wheat - 61
Corn - 30
Rice - 69
Fruit - 54
Fish - 298
Whales - 82
Pearls - 67
Oasis - 18
Silver - 21
Gold - 38

So randomizing resources really does make the world map look bare .

Yet another edit: On marla's map using regular civ3 bonus resources (6), I got 110 of each. So with only 6 bonus resources you get 660 total bonus resources. With 15 (DyP mod's resources), I got 510 on her map. And with 16 bonus resources I got 512. Because of rounding is probably why it went up slightly by adding just 1 resource, but it appears the total # of bonus resources goes down as you add more variety .

 

[Kal-el]

Try and determine if the total number of all resources on the map remains constant. Not just the bonus resources, but all the others as well. DyP adds strategic resources as well and will have additional luxury resources in the next version.

 

[Anglophile]

I know the answer to the strategic resources part of Kal-el's question. The appearance rate of strategic resources is determined solely by the appearance rate in the civ.bic file and the number of civs, no modifier for map size. So on a small map, they are relatively abundant (from a tile density perspective) and on larger maps, pretty scarce - although the absolute number of strategic resource tiles doesn't change. My suspicion is that luxuries are treated much the same, with a pretty low appearance rate (say 100), making them very scarce on huge+ maps. You can give them an appearance rate, I did once at 300, but you get 'stupid' clusters of 10 whatevers in a two tile radius.

Which brings up yet another resource question (I am very impressed with the effort and ingenuity unleashed by my first questions - thanks Kal-el and Bamspeedy). I have noticed in 'recent' games (games at 240x226 take a long time to play) that on "Continents", a luxury resource will only appear on only one continent and that if there are no civs on a continent, then that continent will contain no luxury resources. I don't think this was always true and was a 1.21/1.29 change. Since this only encompasses 3-4 games for me, I would like to know if this is true (and if so, can it be modded (not to my knowledge, so I am asking the masters)) or is it just a statistically insignificant fluke?

 

[Bamspeedy]

Strategic resources are unaffected. The formula for that is totally in control of us as it takes the appearance ratio and the number of civs that are playing. Both the DyP map and Marla's showed 48 timber, 25 horses, 19 saltpepper, and 16 uranium, for example. Even when I added another strategic resource, they stayed the same. The resources that had the same appearance ratio had the exact same number appear.

I used 16 civs, of course.

Luxury is random, so it's hard to see if anything changes, but it doesn't look like it, but still possible. I would probably need to add alot of extra luxuries to notice a difference. Both maps ranged on the number of each luxury from usually 10-14 of each, with some of my tests showing as low as 8 of one luxury and as high as 15 of another.

Before counting the extra luxury, the total # of luxuries was for the DyP map (3 tests before adding luxury, 3 tests after adding 1 luxury):
Before adding luxury: 103, 98, 93
After adding luxury: 94, 85, 87
+ the added luxury makes the last 3 tests actually: 105, 98, 101

Marla's map showed 99 total luxuries with the DyP rules, and 90 with normal civ3 rules.

So I think luxuries work the same way as strategic, except of course there is some randomness in it. But luxury and strategics are not affected by the variety of them you add to the game.

Edit: Actually, Luxuries may be affected by variety, as with 9 luxuries I had pretty close to the same number as when I had 8. So the total number stayed the same, but the number of each one would have gone down. This might make it more interesting for gameplay as each luxury would be a little bit harder for every civ to access/trade away to everyone. But might make it slightly easier to access 8 luxuries for bazaars to reach the max benefit.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Which brings up yet another resource question (I am very impressed with the effort and ingenuity unleashed by my first questions - thanks Kal-el and Bamspeedy). I have noticed in 'recent' games (games at 240x226 take a long time to play) that on "Continents", a luxury resource will only appear on only one continent and that if there are no civs on a continent, then that continent will contain no luxury resources. I don't think this was always true and was a 1.21/1.29 change. Since this only encompasses 3-4 games for me, I would like to know if this is true (and if so, can it be modded (not to my knowledge, so I am asking the masters)) or is it just a statistically insignificant fluke?

I noticed this in computer generated maps prior to the latest patch. I normally played pangea maps, but sometimes there was 1 island with a civ on it, and that island seemed to always have 1 certain luxury on it, that wasn't on the other much larger continent. So I could claim the very large continent (80% of the world), but not have all luxuries because Gems, for example was on that little island where the Egyptians are. Sometimes there would be maybe 1 gem on the big continent, but most of the gems were on the island.

Firaxis said they purposely sometimes clump luxuries together so that a civ would/could have a monopoly on them. This makes for some interesting situations in my experience. I haven't noticed about the no one on a continent = no luxuries for that continent thing, as I almost never have had a decent sized continent with no one on it in my games.

 

[GIDustin]

All DyP staff, check your email so I can finish the last 5 wonder splashes.

GIDustin

 

[Dingocat85]

Originally posted by Kal-el
Everybody knows everybody and pretty darn quickly too. No amount of barbarians are going to stop that from happening.

What I am doing to resolve this issue, and what has already been implented in the version we are working on, we're one step ahead of you on this issue, is pushing back map trading to Navigation and Contact trading to IIRC Nationalism.

Pushing contact-trading 'till later? Genius! Almost as good as my Shines-disappearing-at-citysize-7 idea

Originally posted by dos
Has the AI got war fever or is there something that can be edited?

I think the way the AI unit-making mentality works, a Civ in war will keep on pumping out units until it becomes unprofitable..Since every Government in the original Civ3 eventually had to pay unit-support with too many units, this only makes sense.

That's where the Theocracy problem comes in...as we all know, the AI is attracted to Theocracy like nobody's business, and Theocracy has no unit support.
An AI Theocracy-at-war is making units until it detects negative income . Unit-production's never going to give you a negative income under Theocracy...so the AI should never stop making units

This is all IMHO, remember..it would sure be helpful to get a Firaxis-staffer to tell us all how it works (hint hint..)

 

[connor]

Maybe we discussed this and I am having a moment of senility, but I am about to complete my first ver .86 game and am well into the modern age with almost all other civs far ahead of me in techs. I have only been able to trade with one civ and not until the modern age. They will not build harbors or ports. Any thoughts on how to encourage this? Thanks.

 

[Kal-el]

There was some problem with the AI when I decided to split the harbors functions up amongst the three improvements: Harbor, Port, and Naval Base. So in the next version of the mod we are returning the trade function to the harbor. The Port will now only give a +50% tax increase in the city it is built in. Hopefully this will help alleviate the problem.

 

[KDan]

Any hint of the sonar buoys and scout ships in the next release?

Also, I've just been playing a deity game on your world map, with one little addition, that is an 'Atlantis' big lump of really good city sites in the middle of the atlantic, where I've not made any attempts to go out and talk to the other civs, trying to see what they would do. I was eventually discovered by a Greek longboat. That is the most advanced naval unit I have seen, even though they're already in the industrial age, with empire state building and such already built (btw, it's way hard, even with 5 perfect city sites, to keep up with 15 AIs on 125 trade rate without trading tech with them. I'm still in the middle ages )... And I actually removed some resource requirements for the age of sails ships... so I don't really know WTH is wrong there.

I think after this I'm going to try a non-modded 1.29f game on archipelago to see if the AI builds any ships... if it doesn't, then we know it's not DyP's fault. If it does, then there's some thinking to do... perhaps make some bog standard rifleman-of-the-seas equivalent ship that the AI can always build no matter what resources, once it's got the tech? I was thinking that for each naval unit you could have two versions, which can even share the same graphics - one which requires no resources and is a bit crappy but still functional, and one which requires all the resources and is full-strength... with the former upgrading to the latter of course. I don't think that would be too much extra work, and it might fix the AI probs with naval units.

Back to Atlantis now

Daniel

 

[KDan]

Hahah... typical. Two turns after this post, a fully modern transport has just appeared off the coasts of Atlantis. What does it carry? Tanks to wipe out my puny pikemen? a horde of Grunts?

Time will tell. Still not much of a fleet... a single transport. But at least it's not a canoe!!!!!!

Daniel

 

[thestonesfan]

I think that the rampant tech trading between civs is something Firaxis needs to fix. It really rampers the fun of the game. Even in a regular game, I'm afraid to trade techs with my allies because I think they'll spread them around like the plague.

 

[KDan]

thestonefan: this is easily fixed by messing with the AI tech trade rate in the editor - click help to know what it does exactly.

For reference in one game I set it to 100 and the AIs were always far, far behind, even though I gave them lots of tech all the time, for free (didn't even get good will in exchange, either!).

Daniel

 

[j100telecaster]

I am playing a 0.86 game with just me (American) against England on Regent and the english have a huge navy and are constantly bombarding my cities and attacking my ships. So so far for me I have not seen any problem with the AI not using naval vessels.

 

[KDan]

cool... it's just my computer that's ******** then

Daniel

 

[dos]

Originally posted by thestonesfan
I think that the rampant tech trading between civs is something Firaxis needs to fix. It really rampers the fun of the game. Even in a regular game, I'm afraid to trade techs with my allies because I think they'll spread them around like the plague.

Governer pshychology is what winning the game is all about. Out think the AI. The AI always trades? Trade one tech at a time, with everyone! This means they cant trade the tech among themselves and you make tons of money! You should be able to push your tech research to 100% to keep ahead and still make money.

Richard

p.s If a civ cant trade anything for a tech, this means they cant get it from other civs as well. Wait a few turns and go back to that civ again.

p.p.s Trade for other tech with money, dont give extra techs aways.

 

[thestonesfan]

Well yeah, that works fine, as long as you're ahead. Me, I'm far from an elite player.

I load a lot, gave myself two UU's, took away improvement pollution because it annoyed me, and put in an atomic bomb that the AI won't be able to use. But I do have fun, dammit!