Doughnut Files Term 7 - 9

[Chamnix]

I agree that General_W's original language may be too threatening. And I agree with General_W that the following line:

Any treaty we sign with you will have to include a clause that prevents you from aiding KISS by attacking TNT.

makes it clear already - if they want guaranteed peace with us, they cannot attack TNT. It doesn't take much to figure out the flip side.

How else can we shorten General_W's prose?

That whole second paragraph... who on MIA wishes that DNuts controlled their entire continent now? Sincerely regret?! How much more insincere can we be? I think phony apologies damage our credibility. And do we know KISS was negotiating a deal? We don't really know what was said. KISS swears that we still had a tech deal in place. I don't want to go down the path of hearsay - again, let's stick to what is absolutely true.

I also would drop the part about our contributing gold. Maybe we would, but we certainly shouldn't have to, and if we do, then it would go to TNT and not Dnuts. I don't think it's worth putting that idea in Dnuts' heads.

So what's left?

To Robi_D and your fellow Doughnutians

Thank you very much for your reply to our recent communications, you have gained much respect by being so honest and frank.

We are eager to have a non-agression pact with you – but we must tell you, we see KISS as a major threat that is quickly advancing on a "domination" victory in this world. If you attack TNT to "salvage some land" there is no question that this will be a MAJOR boost to KISS's conquest ambitions.

Any treaty we sign with you will have to include a clause that prevents you from aiding KISS by attacking TNT.

(Side Note: we're more than happy to see you busily settle land in the "Sacred Jungle" and claim "TNT land" that way. Perhaps you could even sign a peace deal with TNT that specifically grants you large portions of the Jungle? We would be happy to work alongside you in lobbying TNT.)

We are also very open to including some generous technology trading agreements to our non-aggression treaty with you – but you'll have to suggest what you'd like to see, as we don't know the details of your current arrangement with KISS.

Also, please know, we remain open to any thoughts and ideas you may have regarding the aggressive KISS action and will be happy to discuss in confidence any concerns you may have.

Remember that you have a potential ally in us and that you will find that we are generous and useful to friends.

Regards

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Offices

I think that reads rather nicely.

Edit - maybe a little too much fawning at the end....

 

[peter grimes]

I guess that depends on how you define "too much fawning"... Myself? I think that 10 pounds is too much. I'd limit it to 3 pounds

One phrase that was in an earlier letter (don't recall if it was ever sent) was Balance of Power. I'm not sure where it would go, but the idea is to let DNUTs know that any action they take to further destabilize things is contrary to MIA's interests.

 

[fe3333au]

Good one Peter .... let's see if we can add it somewhere.

To Robi_D and your fellow Doughnutians

Thank you very much for your reply to our recent communications, you have gained much respect by being so honest and frank.

We are eager to have a non-aggression pact with you – but we must make it perfectly clear that we see KISS as a major threat that is quickly advancing on a "domination" victory in this world. If you attack TNT to "salvage some land" there is no question that this will be a MAJOR boost to KISS' conquest ambitions. An action against TNT will tip the balance of power to an unacceptable level, therefore any treaty between our civilizations will have to include a clause that prevents you from aiding KISS in this manner.

However, we're more than happy to see you expanding into the "Sacred Jungle" and claim "TNT land" in a less aggressive manner. Perhaps you could even sign a peace deal with TNT that specifically grants you large portions of the Jungle?

As mentioned in the previous correspondence, we remain open to including some generous technology trading options to our non-aggression treaty with you – but you'll have to suggest the format for this, as we don't know the details of your current arrangement with KISS.

Also, please know, we remain open to any thoughts and ideas you may have regarding the aggressive KISS action and will be happy to discuss in confidence any concerns you may have.

We trust that you will honour the confidence of our recent correspondence and not broadcast our concerns to the world. Remember that you have a potential ally in us, one you would find generous and useful.


Regards

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Offices

I still want to add the thing about KISS beginning this by approaching TNT first, but I can see I am a lone voice ... so I'll drop it

 

[General_W]

That looks good everyone.

@Fe - you're not a lone voice. I'd have added the part about KISS trying to trade with TNT also... but I can understand the desire to not bring up the past.

Glad it's not my decision!

 

[peter grimes]

I like.

 

[fe3333au]

I have sent via g-mail and pigeon messenger
... and added a request to see if they have any save glitches.
... and an invitation to fill in the history gaps if it is wanted. ... sorry couldn't let it go.

Title ... MIA Responce

To Robi_D and your fellow Doughnutians.

Sorry about the delay in responding, we are experiencing some unusual glitches with the recent saves.
... Do you receive our turn save as a zip?

Anyway, to business.

Thank you very much for your reply to our recent communications, you have gained much respect by being so honest and frank.

We are eager to have a non-aggression pact with you – but we must make it perfectly clear that we see KISS as a major threat that is quickly advancing on a "domination" victory in this world. If you attack TNT to "salvage some land" there is no question that this will be a MAJOR boost to KISS' conquest ambitions. An action against TNT will tip the balance of power to an unacceptable level, therefore any treaty between our civilizations will have to include a clause that prevents you from aiding KISS in this manner.

However, we're more than happy to see you expanding into the "Sacred Jungle" and claim "TNT land" in a less aggressive manner. Perhaps you could even sign a peace deal with TNT that specifically grants you large portions of the Jungle?

As mentioned in the previous correspondence, we remain open to including some generous technology trading options to our non-aggression treaty with you – but you'll have to suggest the format for this, as we don't know the details of your current arrangement with KISS.

Also, please know, we remain open to any thoughts and ideas you may have regarding the aggressive KISS action and will be happy to discuss in confidence any concerns you may have.

We trust that you will honour the confidence of our recent correspondence and not broadcast our concerns to the world. Remember that you have a potential ally in us, one you would find generous and useful.


Regards

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Offices

PS. I must say that you had an 'interesting' bent on the past but this is not the time to present our side of the story. I would be happy to discuss our point of view on the subject if you so wish in AIM. That way you will can at least have MIA's perspective which may alter or at least fill in some gaps from your view of history. I say this from personal experience as my German heritage allowed access to first hand accounts from people actually living through the WWII experience.

 

[Chamnix]

Just thinking... with so many luxuries from TNT, Dnuts wines are now useless to us. We are giving Dnuts ivory for no gain to us. If we cut off that deal, could they get ivory somewhere else? I don't think so - I think they are trading wines to TNT for incense so they have nothing else to offer TNT for ivory. I don't think KISS has more than 1 source of ivory. We could conceivably cancel our wines/ivory deal and sell Dnuts ivory for gpt instead. It's probably not the way to develop a friendship with them, but I'm not sure we are friends anyway.

Comments?

 

[peter grimes]

We could certainly feel them out on the issue.

How do people feel about trading for a couple of workers? That would help slow down their growth as well.

 

[General_W]

Lets see how the Nutters respond to our last letter. There's no point in being antagonistic quite yet, I don't think.

Also – we should keep in mind that TNT may not keep their control over the jungle resources for a lot longer. It's not unrealistic to think that KISS may pillage their jungle road.

That said – if the Dnuts rebuff our treaty offer – then yeah… I think we ought to "renegotiate" our ivory deal with the Nuts. For gold, workers, or whatever.
(Or if they respond positively to the idea of a treaty and tech trade, continued ivory supplies could be part of our goodwill package deal)

 

[Chamnix]

Slave workers...

I don't think we can trade workers with Dnuts unfortunately. I think the rule is that you must have a town on the same continent. That's been kind of in the back on my mind for a while, but I haven't been able to find confirmation. It makes sense since KISS could trade workers with Dnuts when we couldn't with TNT. I don't know if a tech like Astronomy overrides that rule, but I don't think so. I doubt Dnuts would give workers anyway.

Regarding KISS' pillaging TNT's roads: that is a good point, but it may not matter. If TNT and Dnuts have a road connecting their jungle towns, then I think our luxury supply should continue through Dnuts' harbor (assuming TNT doesn't lose their harbor town or have it blockaded by KISS). Maybe Fe3333au can find out from TNT if TNT is connected to Dnuts by land.

 

[fe3333au]

We have a sea route with everyone ... we could test the worker trading options by placing a worker in Athens and seeing if we have that option available in the diplomacy screen .... unless we need an embassy first

 

[fe3333au]

Personal Letter recieved ... since it mentions an official draft will be forthcoming, I will post it, but is is confidential

Title ... CIV3 MTDG --private--

Dear fe3333au,

Firstly this is a one on one letter between me and you, although i will be drafting a formal letter to send to you guys over the weekend, i just wanted to touch base with you so you know were still here, now, In response to your response to our response to your response to our offer i am righting this letter (sorry been a long week at work and i'm feeling a lttle nutty tonight). You will notice a few events have taken place in between your possesion of the save. You might notice in the mean time donsig's spat the dummy and gone home with his bat and ball. That because we declered war on TNT. And while i personally thought we could still have been achieved more peacefully, i can't help but be happy that we captured two cities without loss and have a third completely surrounded ready to take next turn. I know you guys suggested that we advance through the jungle peacefully but the line of thinking from most of the team was by taking the cities and the fact tnt was nice enough to build a road through the jungle, we can then quickly leapfrog into tnt proper and begin settling on there side a lot quicker thus denying KISS land and hopefully cutting them off from expanding too far. The other thing i want to discuss is that we will be in a position to do a tech trade deal with you guys in about 10 turns or so as the arrangement with KISS will be ending with the research of the next tech and both sides have agreed to not renewing the deal further for various reasons which we can go into at a latter date (it looks like this coming week at work will be fairly quite so i should have the oppertuninty for a chat on AIM). Anyway i trust that we can keep this between us for the moment, and if you do want to tell your team some of the info (ie Doughnuts attack TNT) that my name wont be meantioned as the source. Like i said a formal letter will be dispatched over the weekend.
Take care
Robi D

Please goto Grant Strategy to discuss our next actions

 

[Chamnix]

we will be in a position to do a tech trade deal with you guys in about 10 turns or so as the arrangement with KISS will be ending with the research of the next tech

Just want to highlight that - the deal is going through Education for Gunpowder, and Robi's estimate of their deal ending around turn 170 was either way off or a blatant lie...

 

[General_W]

This just in from the Dnuts!
They weren’t terribly slow for once! Wonder if they’re nervous??

Fe3333au and the MIA government

Firstly i would like to bring up the issue of TNT.As you will discover when you get the save (eventually) that we have gone to war with them. Our government understands your concerns about these actions and your preference for more peaceful expansion into the north of our continent. However our intelligence has told us that this would not be a good option if we are to stop the KISS forces claiming a majority of TNT lands for themselves. We are confident that our actions will limit KISS to the north east corner where they now are.

The other issue we would like to discuss with you is the trading of technology. Our agreement with KISS on this matter will be ending within the next 10 turns and wont be renewed. We are therefore happy to discuss any technological trade possibilities with you, whether it be a one off swap or a coordinated approach to research. Also our newly aquired lands will open up the possiblity to further resource trading oppertuninties.

Robi D,
Acting Foreign Minister

So here’s my take…

We should consider telling the Nutters that we have a long-standing non-aggression deal with TNT that we won’t break – so no military help from us (they probably know this already). We may also want to warn them that we are in the midst of a big negotiation with TNT, but even if successful, it won’t seriously interfere with their plans to wipe TNT out.
(OR we can duck the TNT issue totally – and just hope the Nuts aren’t too upset when/if they see us trade technology for a city with TNT)

Past that – I think we should ask them for a 40 turn guaranteed peace deal, that carries forward indefinitely with a 10 turn cancellation clause, not be given before turn 40.

We combine that with a Tech deal as follows:
(Even after Nuts/KISS swap Education for Gunpowder in 10 turns, we’ll still be up Banking, Astronomy, and Chivalry on them – and already be working on Chemistry)

So we tell them – we’re expecting to be just starting work on Chemistry in 10 turns, so maybe we can trade them Chemistry for 200 gold (or 12 gold per turn for 20 turns) and a supply of 1 of the Luxuries they’ve taken from TNT for 40 turns from the time we give them Chemistry. (If for some reason they haven’t taken the TNT towns, they can pay us an extra 700 gold... for 900 gold total...still 1/2 the beaker cost of Chemistry!) Nuts are then free to focus on gold stockpile and getting settlers to compete with TNT while we get Chemistry.
After that, We’ll do Physics, and they’ll do Metallurgy – and we swap straight across.

Dnuts will not give KISS any tech that MIA researched, and since the Nuts will be in competition with KISS for land in the North, we think it would be in their best interest to agree to a “no trading tech with KISS, period” clause to the treaty – but we’ll leave that up to them.


At least, that’s my idea!

Looking forward to seeing what everyone thinks!

 

[fe3333au]

At this stage I wouldn't even mention TNT

One thing I'd like to do is chat with Robbi ... I want to know if they passed our letter onto KISS (this may explain Whomp's comment about knowing many things)

I am unsure as to whetehr we allign with Nuts or if we are to attack ... it depends on what is eventually decided in Strategy thread.

 

[peter grimes]

We must proceed with caution. The letter mentions that the Tech deal with KISS will be over in 10 turns, and won't be renewed.

If we send them a very specific proposal, they will be able to weigh our offer directly against one that KISS may offer them. That would be a direct replay of how DNUTs played KISS and MIA off eachother during the first tech-swaps.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes -Mark Twain

 

[fe3333au]

I agree ... I would ask them to offer us options.

KISS did also mention that they are not good research partners.

I think we wait until TNT chat has happened ... but at this stage the crux for a non-aggression pact will have to include a clause to cease forthwith any action against TNT.

 

[General_W]

I mentioned this in the Grand Strategy thread – but I think trying to get Dnuts to stop the war with TNT is a lost cause. That’s water under the bridge now. Dnuts have made their intention clear by ignoring our threat of war and attacking TNT anyway. Hopefully TNT and the Nuts will make peace. But they will make that decision. Nothing we say will matter much.
Let's not badger them - they don't want to listen. Let's stay focused on getting the best deal for MIA and shutting KISS out of the tech loop. (and focused on preventing a 2 vs 1 war against MIA on turn 166! )

So here’s my rough draft I’m submitting to Mr. Foreign Minister Fe to get the ball rolling on a response to the Nutters.

Dear RobiD and all Doughnutians,

Thank you for you letter.
We are, of course, dismayed that you have found it necessary to attack TNT. We are still worried this will ultimately aid KISS in their domination quest… but all of our decisions haven’t exactly been popular with you either. So I suppose we’re even!
From the save, it appears your opening attack was quite a success. Well done.
We urge you to make peace – if you can broker a deal with Iron-heads.

Now let us talk of the future.
We are very interested in building a closer alliance with you.
We are envisioning something along the lines of, say, a 40 turn peace deal that extends indefinitely past the 40th turn with a 10-turn cancellation notice clause. Combined with this peace deal we would like to make a tech-swapping arrangement. You’ll find that MIA is in a position to be a very helpful trading partner.
We assume the tech deal with KISS that ends in about 10 turns will be an education for gunpowder swap. We have education (as you are no doubt aware) and we hope to have gunpowder within the next 10 turns also.
So what do you propose for a tech swap?
We’re also eager to hear what you think of combining the tech deal with a peace treaty – and what terms any peace deal should have.

These are dark days in which the specter of KISS domination hangs over the whole world.
The Doughnuts and the MIA must look to each other in brotherhood to stand against the gathering dark.

We look forward to hearing from you soon.

Your brothers across the sea,
MIA

How’s that for a start?

 

[fe3333au]

Good start ... but too much intel

I suspect the comment made by Whomp could also be explained by Nut's loose lips.

But I agree with the intent ... will wait for TNT chat first though.

 

[Chamnix]

At some point (maybe not in this letter, but relatively soon), we may want to mention the danger KISS poses to Dnuts - specifically, KISS is strong to us, and we are strong to Dnuts, and apparently they used their GA to build mostly military and not infrastructure. KISS may just head south once TNT is dead.