The preliminary idea
RobiD77: now how does this deal sound to you guys ... Gunpowder banking and gold for astronomy, physics and ToG ... That way you can get your GA
fe3333au: We give banking for Gunpowder ... You pay for Astronomy?
RobiD77: we'll research banking
fe3333au: Oh and we do astro, physics, ToG
RobiD77: since you guys can research quicker you can probably do physics as well, then we will give you cash for ToG
You probably could have warned them that we already have Banking. They're going to find out as soon as they get the save anyway. But no big deal.
Clearly their offer isn't going to work. Unless they are going to pay us CRAZY ammounts of gold.
They left out chemistry for some reason?
But at least they are thinking about sending us something!
TNT have been playing alot worse than I thought they were. Now that shocking. We must now start building some boats so that they cannot get easy access to us. If TNT were to play better they could have beaten back the advance from KISS. The Nutters have shown how poorly they realy have been playing. We really should be going for going for Military Traditions since we need to get Calvaries, but I noticed that there was no mention of Chemistry which is needed fo us to get on the way, so what will happen with that tech between the two nations.
After seeing that KISS has a lot of boats, Magnetism will be a relatively high priority. We dont want to be fighting galleys with caravels when we could have easily got Frigates had we tried. Also, Nationalism should be a VERY high priority in the IA (if we dont get it free). I have PBEM experience with Mobilization, and it really does give that extra edge to our military production.
Anyone else thinking along the lines of "pre-emptive strike"?
Perhaps we'll have to less to fear from the Dnuts? Unless this is just a "peter-grimes-esque" move to lull us into a false sense of confidence.
Time will tell... but still - could be a good sign.
And where is that proposal?!?!? Maybe KISS is taking too long to make a counter-offer? What IS keeping them?
He was off to party and probably sleeping (or still drinking) when you posted (1am Adelaide time) ... he has 3 days off ... so relax ... deep breath ... hold ... hold ... hold ... annnnd exhale
I think we will need to ask for a delay if the deal is not sent soon. We must work quickly with any deal because we can research every 4 turns so we must know when they are ready to deal because stalling will look like they are not ready to deal from our POV.
Perhaps we'll have to less to fear from the Dnuts? Unless this is just a "peter-grimes-esque" move to lull us into a false sense of confidence.
Time will tell... but still - could be a good sign.
- thanks azzaman! At least we know what were're up against.
I would like to say - it's now Sunday night on the West Coast USA, and still no word from the Dnuts. I'm getting a little upset, and I'm feeling increasingly paranoid.
The deep breathing is no longer helping. (It worked briefly)
This means that Dnut's military is very small indeed. I'm not advocating an attack, but, if we were to choose to attack, there is really no better time than these next couple of turns.
I'm not as worried about not hearing back yet. If the deal falls through, we can whack them. If the deal goes forward, we just have to keep a close watch on them.
We are still awaiting your proposal, as you can imagine we are very eager to cement something and would like to get our hands on Gunpowder.
You will be aware that we already know Banking, sorry it was late when we chatted and I forgot to mention it.
Therefore let us begin the process as we need to coordinate.
We await your reply ...
Best of luck with the pest extermination
Oh by the way, noticed you too are building the Pyramids ... it seems that we have got ourselves a Wonder race to bet on as well as predicting an inevitable explosive extinction (will they go out with a bang or a fizz is the question that we ask ourselves.
I'm glad you were able to send something off so quickly to the Dnuts… but I'm worried it may not quite convey the sense of urgency we need.
I mean, if the proposal we get from the Nutters isn't just perfect and we sign it as is – and we have to send a counter proposal – we'll have no hope of getting a deal done before we play turn 141. At which point we'll need to start researching Gunpowder or risk falling behind in tech will the Dnuts drag their feet like a sloth stuck in molasses.
On a personal note – I'm frankly getting increasingly upset with the Nut's total disregard for speed. It's been almost 2 weeks (about 13 days) since we sent them a proposal for trading. A week later, we got a weak response about our proposal being "not what they expected" and since that time, a couple more weak promises to send us something.
And we're still waiting…
It's just my opinion, but I think we need to make it clear to them that they are slowly asphyxiating this deal – and we really need some kind of response from them.
Here's my proposal again – updated with changes made based on Chamnix's comments and the new state of affairs.
The opening paragraph is probably a little bit too confrontational, but I already toned it down as much as I could.
Spoiler:
Dear Dnuts,
We have been eagerly awaiting further word from you on a potential Tech & Peace deal. Unfortunately, we are now up against some time restrictions. It has been 2 weeks since we sent you our last proposal, and we are still waiting for a formal reply. If you don't wish to give us the impression that you're just jerking our chains, it would be helpful to see a good-faith counter-offer.
RobiD gave us some brief indication of your current status and desires, so we have crafted the following proposal that we hope you agree is very fair and profitable to both sides. Hopefully this will help speed things along.
Article 1 – Doughnuts and MIA hereby agree to a sweeping nonaggression treaty. 1.1 Neither side will attack the others units or end their turn inside the others borders without express permission. 1.2 This nonaggression treaty will last a minimum of 35 turns. 1.3 It can be canceled anytime after the 35th turn by 10 turns written notice to the other team.
Article 2 – Doughnuts and MIA hereby agree to cooperate on researching technology. 2.1 The Doughnuts will immediately provide the secret of Gunpowder to MIA, and MIA will reciprocate with the knowledge of either Banking or with Astronomy – Doughnut's choice. 2.2 If team Doughnut chooses to receive Astronomy for Gunpowder, they will also pay MIA 100 gold. (Gunpowder monopoly cost = 1440. Astronomy monopoly cost = 1680. Banking monopoly cost = 1560) 2.3 Upon receiving Gunpowder, MIA will immediately being researching at top speed to learn the secret of Chemistry (Monopoly beaker cost = 1800). Immediately upon leaning this technology, MIA will make it available to team Doughnut for 1/3 the value in gold = 600 gold. 2.4 Doughnuts may pay MIA for Chemistry with a) one lump sum of 600 gold, b) 10 equal payments of 63 gold, or c) 20 equal payments of 35 gold. Doughnuts choice. 2.5 Once MIA has completed Chemistry, they will immediately begin work on Physics (monopoly beaker cost = 1920). Dnuts will begin work on Metallurgy (monopoly beaker Cost = 1920). As soon as these techs are done, they will be traded straight across. 2.6 MIA and Doughnuts hereby agree to not trade, sell, or gift any technology received from the other team to team KISS without the express permission of the other team. 2.7 MIA and Doughnuts hereby agree that even after the final tech trade specified in this agreement is completed, they will give first preference to the other team in future tech proposals, at least for the rest of the Middle Ages.
We hope the numbering system will help us clearly discuss any concerns or modifications you'd like to discuss on this treaty.
Again – we have some key decision to make here soon, and the longer it takes us to get a deal, certain things (like Gunpowder) will become less valuable to us. Even if we can get a broad agreement in principle, we are confident we can satisfactorily resolve any minor issues that remain.
Looking forward to hearing from you and to many years of peace and cooperation!
I agree that there is a lack of urgency to Fe's letter, but I'm not at all certain we should worry.
DNUTs are not enamored of KISS, but KISS has a threatening army on their continent. If Dnuts can't give us Guns, will we still want to pursue a deal with them? I think we will, as it will lock KISS out: That's why I'm not sure about the urgency. But, the sooner we get Dnuts on our side, the earlier we lock out KISS, and that's important.
Guys you also have to take RL into concideration (Rob has been interstate on business, he has 3 days off which is a rare thing, he is MIA's rep so all business goes through him) and there has been a rapid rate that turns cycle with many eager to see TNT's demise.
Therefore, I am not going to send anything until either ...
1. We receive a proposal
2. Have a chat
3. We receive nothing in 24 hours
I don't want to rush them ... the urgency can be expressed better in a personal chat.
Question ... Do I warn Nuts about our exact settling plan ie. we plan to secure our own supply of Silks ... or answer queries as they are presented ?
I think be honest
... but if they say they prefer us not to ... I will say bad luck, deal with it (but more diplomatically of course)
I propose that if we receive nothing we send a letter that is stern and will stipulate a deadline.
Something like (spelling has been checked)
Title ... MIA Concerns in Continued Delay
To the Nutter Government ... For Your Eyes Only !!!
I have been instructed to send you this urgent official message.
We are still waiting for a response to our proposal let me say that we totally understand that RL does interfere with the game, but the game swiftly cycles on.
AND ... It has been 2 Weeks since we sent our proposal which detailed a list of topic options we wished for you to address.
To date, we have received nothing but nebulous promises and teasing gestures, nothing concrete, only small titbits lacking in substance, an absence of anything for us to properly consider.
Some of us are beginning to suspect 'deliberate' time wasting, some less stable among MIA are beginning to see subtle nefarious webs of deception being spun in our direction. While my voice is discordant to these, even I am becoming steadily unsure of your motives. I must warn you that the Spectre of Paranoia (the Destroyer) has been sighted lurking in the darkened backalleys of Athens (especially under the shadow of our wondrous sundial)
We are excited about the possibilities of our two great teams linking together, but I stress again that the game turns are being rapidly played and sent. Therefore we require post haste your thoughts on trade options and especially your intentions regarding the KISS situation or we will have no option but to assume the worst.
We are happy to take this in steps, starting with the Gunpowder and next technology trade.
I attach this for your immediate perusal and comment
Spoiler:
Article 1 Doughnuts and MIA hereby agree to a sweeping nonaggression treaty. 1.1 Neither side will attack the other's units or end their turn inside the others borders without express permission. 1.2 This nonaggression treaty will last a minimum of 35 turns. 1.3 It can be cancelled anytime after the 35th turn by 10 turns written notice to the other team.
Article 2 Doughnuts and MIA hereby agree to cooperate on researching technology. 2.1 The Doughnuts will immediately provide the secret of Gunpowder to MIA, and MIA will reciprocate with the knowledge of either Banking or with Astronomy. 2.2 If team Doughnut chooses to receive Astronomy, they will also pay MIA an additional 100 gold. (Gunpowder monopoly cost = 1440. Astronomy monopoly cost = 1680. Banking monopoly cost = 1560) 2.3 Upon receiving Gunpowder, MIA will immediately being researching at top speed to learn the secret of Chemistry (Monopoly beaker cost = 1800). Immediately upon leaning this technology, MIA will make it available to team Doughnut for 40% the value in gold = 720 gold. 2.4 Doughnuts may pay MIA for Chemistry with
a) one lump sum of 720 gold, or
b) 10 equal payments of 75 gold and Gems for 20 turns, or
c) 20 equal payments of 40 gold and Gems for 20 turns. 2.5 Once MIA has completed Chemistry, they will immediately begin work on Physics (monopoly beaker cost = 1920). Dnuts will begin work on Metallurgy (monopoly beaker Cost = 1920). As soon as these techs are done, they will be traded straight across. 2.6 MIA and Doughnuts hereby agree to not trade, sell, or gift any technology received from the other team to team KISS without the express permission of the other team. 2.7 MIA and Doughnuts hereby agree that even after the final tech trade specified in this agreement is completed, they will give first preference to the other team in future tech proposals, at least for the rest of the Middle Ages. 2.8 MIA and Doughnuts hereby agree that there will be a 10 turn period after the treaty has been dissolved before any of these technologies can be passed onto KISS.
We hope the numbering system will help us clearly discuss any concerns or modifications you'd like to discuss on this treaty.
Again we have some key decision to make here soon, and the longer it takes us to get a deal, certain things (like Gunpowder) will become less valuable to us. Even if we can get a broad agreement in principle, we are confident we can satisfactorily resolve any minor issues that remain.
Looking forward to hearing from you and to many years of peace and cooperation!
We give 24 hours for your response ... No reply will be an answer in itself.
I sincerely hope that you do not over react to this letter, but I stress again that you have had 2 weeks to discuss, draft and respond to our proposal.
> Are we happy with 33% value in gold or is 40% better ??? reason ... we are selling tech which eventually may be handed over to KISS if we are betrayed!!!
... also want gems added ... this will hopefully be timed to coincide with our Silk connection.
2.3 Upon receiving Gunpowder, MIA will immediately being researching at top speed to learn the secret of Chemistry (Monopoly beaker cost = 1800). Immediately upon leaning this technology, MIA will make it available to team Doughnut for 40% the value in gold = 720 gold.
2.4 Doughnuts may pay MIA for Chemistry with
a) one lump sum of 720 gold,
b) 10 equal payments of 75 gold and Gems for 20 turns, or
c) 20 equal payments of 40 gold and Gems for 20 turns.
have also added ... 2.8 MIA and Doughnuts hereby agree that there will be a 10 turn period after the treaty has been disolved before any of these technologies can be passed onto KISS.
EDIT - Sent because of rapid turn cycle ... sorry but I feel it is necessary or we would lose yet another turn.
- well, it's a little late for my comments now!
But I'm really glad you sent something. This either needs to get moving, or we just need to let it die.
If we can get 40% for our techs, that's great - but if they want to haggle, I'm really ok with 33% - just personally. It's worth quite a bit to keep them dealing with us instead of with KISS. (As long as they actually honor our deal... we'll have to watch them!)
Well I'm back from walking the dog and quite pissed
Here is the reply ... at least we got the to respond with our ultimatum .. haven't looked yet .. I'm bit scared .. oh well
Robi D said:
Dear fe3333au,
Here is our proposal for our technological sharing partnership.
MIA will research Astronomy, Physics and Theory of Gravity and give these technologies to Doughnutia.
In return Doughnutia will research Gunpowder and Banking. Doughnutia will also give MIA 500 gold to help MIA's research.
Both MIA and Doughnutia agree to only share the above technologies with a third party if both teams agree to it.
That at the conclusion of these trades the techonolgical partnership may either be extended further or discontinued subject to talks between both parties. If one or both parties decide to discontinue the agreement any outstanding technonlogy must still be completed.
This is a draft so if you feel there is something missing or some wording could be better then don't be shy in putting forward your ideas.
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We really should be going for going for Military Traditions since we need to get Calvaries, but I noticed that there was no mention of Chemistry which is needed fo us to get on the way, so what will happen with that tech between the two nations.
Maybe KISS is taking too long to make a counter-offer? What IS keeping them? 
let me say that we totally understand that RL does interfere with the game, but the game swiftly cycles on. 
... It has been 2 Weeks since we sent our proposal which detailed a list of topic options we wished for you to address. 
- well, it's a little late for my comments now! 
