Doviello wolf pack bug? (world spell)

[Keyeth]

So I had a stack of about 16-30 Battlemasters and my hero Bambur about to attack a city, when I cast my world spell. I combined the wolves into two separate wolf packs, and each had a strength of about..

55?!

55 Strength wolf packs!

They were pretty much immortal at that point, and honestly at any point, with their high movement and capacity to create even more wolves. I think that this has to be a bug with how the levels and promotions of the units that create them stack, because I can't see anything standing up to strength 55 wolf packs around the time that Iron Working is being researched. I can submit a picture or a save with this, if it would help.

 

[zup]

Sweet. I really have to try it sometime.

 

[Honor]

Is it working the way it's supposed to work? If so, gamebreakingly overpowered it is.

 

[xienwolf]

It is the advantage of holding off on using your worldspell. If you have many strong units when you cast your spell, then you start with many STRONG wolves. Combining the wolves carries their bonus strength over to the Wolf Pack. Combing Wolf Packs carries over their combined strengths and enhances them with Empowerment. At those high numbers you will actually lose strength when you add a wolf to move you from Empower 5 back to no Empower but an extra 2 strength (since you exchange a 50% boost for a straight +2, but if you have enough wolves/wolf packs nearby to re-combine back up to Empower 5 then it is nothing but gain).


I am really quite amazed nobody has mentioned them until now. I guess just nobody really plays Fall Further version of Doviello.



Anyway, it might be that we need a slightly non-linear combination routine so that you get diminishing returns on massive amalgamations. The current setup was primarily intending that the spell is cast early enough that few of your starting wolves have more than 1 point of bonus strength (though even then if you have a large enough army and consolidate EVERYTHING into a single wolf pack you get some serious strength)


But yes: A Doviello who puts all his eggs in one basket is insanely strong. Just watch out that nobody uses Domination on the poor wolf, or slaps it with some magic and then uses a scout to turn the tables on you. (In my opinion, the opportunity cost of waiting till lategame to use your worldspell with an Early game power Civ AND the risk of losing the unit so easily to magic keep this from being overpowered in current incarnation. But as I frequently state: You don't want ME to be the final call on balance, I am pretty harsh most of the time)

 

[WarKirby]

hmm. 55 strength isn't really that bad.

Spam enough warriors at it, it's still going down.

And if you attacked the ljosalfar, and they used their worldspell, your wolveswould be crushed under a flood of treants.

It seems like, beyond the point where you get 99.9% odds, strength doesn't make a whole lot of difference. You can still take a lot of damage from battling things much weaker, and repeated battles will wear you down.

Still, a 55 str wolfpack is insane. Shame animals don't have many promotion options.

 

[Vehem]

Is it working the way it's supposed to work? If so, gamebreakingly overpowered it is.

I'm not sure it's overpowered in the strict sense (as there are viable counters and downsides to it as mentioned in other posts) - but I also don't think it's really a valid representation of what we were aiming for. A pack's strength is in the sheer number of wolves in it - but this would be more like a single really big wolf capable of destroying one thing at a time. It may pay to allow wolf packs to combine upto a decent size (Strength 10, which would hit 15 due to Empower V) but not beyond, meaning that you just get a bunch of strong wolves rather than an Uberwolf.

Alternatively, take a leaf from Magister and rename any wolf with Strength 30 or more "Xienwolf"...

 

[WarKirby]

It may pay to allow wolf packs to combine upto a decent size (Strength 10, which would hit 15 due to Empower V) but not beyond, meaning that you just get a bunch of strong wolves rather than an Uberwolf.

This sounds like a good way to go. strength 10 is plenty for wolves

 

[xienwolf]

Could limit normal Wolfpacks to strength 10 with Empower 5, then allow a special "megaWolf" synthesis where you knock 5 max wolfpacks together to form a Xien unit Though personally I wish I could make a suitable model before placing my name on any unit (and I'd rather the unit be subtlly powerful instead of raw brute strength, but that's beside the point)

 

[WarKirby]

Maybe you can petition Sezereth to do it

Or learning to do so yourself, is always good too.

 

[Keyeth]

The only issue I took with it, is it was like turn 250 when I did it. I just blazed for iron working and pumped out a ton of units, then upgraded them using the Doviello's mechanic to Battlemasters, then unleashed the do--wolves of war.

The issue I take is that I did it as early as I did. Imagine if you went Undercouncil early enough, and then turned passed the slavery law. Then if you had your research turned down, you could just hire dozens of slaves and upgrade them on the cheap to basic units, and then boom, a million wolves again, bypassing the necessity for very strong units to get your strength 50 wolves even earlier in the game.

I think, generally speaking, there is definitely something wrong with this. -- Also, the warrior stack fighting them assumes that the uh...

30-50 units you had when you CAST your world spell for some reason instantly died =p .. This isn't like it replaces my 30 with 2 strength 50 wolves.. It just created (for me) 2 strength 50 wolves in ADDITION to my battlemasters. That is the crux of why it's broken, to me.

 

[WarKirby]

hiring dozens of slaves is going to take dozens*30 gold though.
I don't really see that as a problem, if you're willing to invest such resources in your worldspell.

And it's not supposed to consume the units. I think it would be pretty bad if it consumed all your military units and replaced them with crappy wolves.

 

[Keyeth]

I know it's not supposed to consume them, and I never claimed it was, I don't know where you got that idea. The point I was making is that it more than doubles your military capacity at that moment, because you can combine the wolves into some sort of uber pack, which is far more effective than 30 individual wolves, and in all honesty, far more effective than anything anyone is capable of putting out at that point in the game.

The fact that it is an addition, as I stated, is what makes it so that you can't just throw out a stack of units to kill the uber-wolf. Because it's defended.... By everything you had before you cast your world spell.

And I *do* see it as a problem, because investing those kinds of resources is easy, if you jack your research all the way down for a few turns, it's only 30 + 10 + 20 + 40 = 100 gold per battlemaster, which you can get in a turn or two if you put your research down, in addition to the ones you're producing. It only takes 15 or 16 turns of that to get 20-30, and then you get 2 strength 50 wolves for that. If you waited 30 turns for it? 4 strength 50 wolves or 2 strength 100 wolves?

I think that's definitely an issue. No opponent is going to be able to keep up with that, even if they know you're going to do it.

--

Edit: Also, you don't see a problem with (if you manage to survive) a lategame wolfpack having >99.9% odds against Mulcarn Reborn, because they're strength 100+?

 

[WarKirby]

And I *do* see it as a problem, because investing those kinds of resources is easy, if you jack your research all the way down for a few turns, it's only 30 + 10 + 20 + 40 = 100 gold per battlemaster, which you can get in a turn or two if you put your research down, in addition to the ones you're producing. It only takes 15 or 16 turns of that to get 20-30, and then you get 2 strength 50 wolves for that. If you waited 30 turns for it? 4 strength 50 wolves or 2 strength 100 wolves?

I think that's definitely an issue. No opponent is going to be able to keep up with that, even if they know you're going to do it.

Well, you're going to be struggling with your already crippled research. Setting it that low can be suicidal.
--

Edit: Also, you don't see a problem with (if you manage to survive) a lategame wolfpack having >99.9% odds against Mulcarn Reborn, because they're strength 100+?

Actually, I'd consider Auric Ascended to be stupidly weak, in general. Thanks for reminding me, I need to tweak him.
But I already mentioned that I support Vehem's notion to limit them to str 10.

 

[Keyeth]

Well, you're going to be struggling with your already crippled research. Setting it that low can be suicidal.

I think the key thing you're missing is the part where all of your enemies are dead because the wolves at their walls have formed rudimentary ramps made of other wolves, or they've formed some sort of massive wolf Voltron.

 

[Quetz]

off topic, but what is up with auric ascended's animation? it would look really cool if it wasnt playing at 23897402394 frames per second... he doesn't look like he's floating menacingly, he looks like he's having a seizure..

as for him being stupidly weak, keep in mind that actually fighting melee battles with him is kind of pointless, when you can kill everything in a 2 tile radius with 2 or 3 casts of his spell...

 

[WarKirby]

keep in mind that actually fighting melee battles with him is kind of pointless,

yes. See, that's the kind of thing I want to fix.

I'll start by giving him 8 movement and Blitz.

 

[Quetz]

but it still wont fix why you would bother doing it in the first place...

 

[kenken244]

I usually give Auric 90 strength, 10 first strikes, fear, 100% chance of 100 damage defensive strike, make his spell destroy improvements and reduce population (razing the city if it goes below zero) and spawn blizzards, having ice terrain always be around him and making his snowfall spell immobilize units it hits.

 

[Keyeth]

This isn't a thread about Auric Ascended.

 

[WarKirby]

This isn't a thread about Auric Ascended.

You're very right.

Also

.....the wolves at their walls have formed rudimentary ramps made of other wolves...

This is the funniest thing I've read all day