Dow Jones Crashed this Week, Historical Decline

The climate change is new. The rest is old. We have lessons from history on how the rest have gone well, and gone not well. A rising empire trends towards bad, but lets see. China may very well be less horsehockey than the rest of the world has been in its situation. I'd plan around dealing with the opposite, myself. Just, you know, in case.
 
The climate change is new. The rest is old. We have lessons from history on how the rest have gone well, and gone not well. A rising empire trends towards bad, but lets see. China may very well be less ****** than the rest of the world has been in its situation. I'd plan around dealing with the opposite, myself. Just, you know, in case.
Yes, but we face them at once this year. It is going to be a hard year all around. Most things we have already accepted as bad, now made worse.
 
I agree. Desperate enough, or with motivation, and we can leverage old 4-H lessons in sewing for dresses and shirts and whatnot. Ignorance of poverty in the 80s farm recession gives good life perspective and, possibly, contentment and meaning. I cannot replicate access to cardiologists. That depends on where shitheads define the balance of power of God Money. Do. Not. Lose. Obamacare to Assclown. Please, oh Biden supporters*.

*Or eff it up on your own. It's generalized and hyperbolic. I'm really not sober. My bad.
 
I agree. Desperate enough can we can leverage old 4-H lessons in sewing for dresses and shirts and whatnot. Ignorance of poverty in the 80s farm recession gives good life perspective and, possibly, contentment and meaning. I cannot replicate access to cardiologists.
:lol: As a person who goes to see one annually to make sure my cow valve is still working, I agree. But if it stops while I'm not at his office, I'll figure it quickly I bet.

Bad jobs are tough. I've had them and fortunately find a way out before life became more miserable. If that is an option, don't ignore it because it is hard.
 
Lets find out if the steam fitters want me next week. They didn't last year and apparently sometimes they pull hair, which means they probably don't want me ever. <shrugs> I suppose there is always mortaging the kid's future for more education and hoping I work long enough to make it a boon rather than a liability, right? We'll hit black on the whole one of these years if we live long enough! :lol:

You're a gem, Bird. Remember that the next time I ***** at you, plox.
 
Lets find out if the steam fitters want me next week. They didn't last year and apparently sometimes they pull hair, which means they probably don't want me ever. <shrugs> I suppose there is always mortaging the kids future for more education and hoping I work long enough to make it a boon rather than a liability, right?

You're a gem, Bird.
Steam fitter? Can you customize my steam interface? I don't like the recent changes they made.....

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-pipefitters-and-steamfitters.htm is not bad. Of course it not your local market and I am no expert on what being a steam fitter really means or can do. But I am available as a resource.
 
That hasn't happened yet. But keep in mind that the oil business structured to survive boom and bust cycles. Exxon and its big buddies will be fine. Smaller companies are structured so losses can be segregated from parent company. It's like the movie industry where each film is its own entity P&L wise. Frackers may shut down wells as the supply drops. This is not a new situation for them. There will probably be hard times form lots of workers. NM may well be in trouble. Our new highest ever state budget is tied to oil revenue.

That is why Russia doesn't want to cut production. They want people working and having income rather than profits. Most of Putin's government income comes from energy. In the US Oil companies prefer profits over people working.

When I saw the news about no production cut agreements I believed that their reason for not wanting to cut production was hitting the bankrupt but financially propped up fracking industry. It's what I would do in their place, the logical strategy. New reports seems to point to that conclusion:

At 10:16 a.m. on a wet and dreary Friday morning, Russia’s energy minister walked into OPEC’s headquarters in central Vienna knowing his boss was ready to turn the global oil market upside down.

Alexander Novak told his Saudi Arabian counterpart Prince Abdulaziz bin Salman that Russia was unwilling to cut oil production further. The Kremlin had decided that propping up prices as the coronavirus ravaged energy demand would be a gift to the U.S. shale industry. The frackers had added millions of barrels of oil to the global market while Russian companies kept wells idle. Now it was time to squeeze the Americans.

But the OPEC+ deal also aided America’s shale industry and Russia was increasingly angry with the Trump administration’s willingness to employ energy as a political and economic tool. It was especially irked by the U.S.’s use of sanctions to prevent the completion of a pipeline linking Siberia’s gas fields with Germany, known as Nord Stream 2. The White House has also targeted the Venezuelan business of Russia’s state-oil producer Rosneft.

“The Kremlin has decided to sacrifice OPEC+ to stop U.S. shale producers and punish the U.S. for messing with Nord Stream 2,” said Alexander Dynkin, president of the Institute of World Economy and International Relations in Moscow, a state-run think tank. “Of course, to upset Saudi Arabia could be a risky thing, but this is Russia’s strategy at the moment – flexible geometry of interests.”

They're willing to take some damage to force the fracking industry to acknowledge its losses and cut production also. The political dimension I was not anticipating but it also makes sense. Trump's chickens, hos embarking on the neocon foreign policy ship, are coming home to roost. But if this indeed leads to serial bankruptcies in the fracking industry, it it just be the trigger for a situation that had been rotten for years now: it has not been profitable for a long time.
 
When I saw the news about no production cut agreements I believed that their reason for not wanting to cut production was hitting the bankrupt but financially propped up fracking industry. It's what I would do in their place, the logical strategy. New reports seems to point to that conclusion:



They're willing to take some damage to force the fracking industry to acknowledge its losses and cut production also. The political dimension I was not anticipating but it also makes sense. Trump's chickens, hos embarking on the neocon foreign policy ship, are coming home to roost. But if this indeed leads to serial bankruptcies in the fracking industry, it it just be the trigger for a situation that had been rotten for years now: it has not been profitable for a long time.
Interesting quote. Where is it from? Today's WSJ has a long article on the failed deal too. No mention of fracking or even the impact of the failure on US production. Clearly two different agendas. The Russian play is presented as an attempt to push demand by lower prices and help it sell oil to China and as a Russian power play. I'll copy and paste it after lunch.
 
Interesting quote. Where is it from? Today's WSJ has a long article on the failed deal too. No mention of fracking or even the impact of the failure on US production. Clearly two different agendas. The Russian play is presented as an attempt to push demand by lower prices and help it sell oil to China and as a Russian power play. I'll copy and paste it after lunch.

Forgot the link. Here.

The really good ones are from families that still considered it a necessity to get an education at university to be a full community member and farmer. That's becoming a stupid economic prospect in an era of economic prospects that make people stupid.

So basically people in the New Deal spirit. The thing is, your country already knows the solution to its problems, it's the same one FDR used in the 30s. Trump of course cannot do it. I'd love to tell that the problems will be fixed but it's too early to tell. This is one important election year there, few are up to that task. But there is hope.

I think that this year agriculture will turn out to be very important. I've been reading about crop failures in several regions of the world. Unfortunately finance has too much power over ag prices, feeling good about one's community doing necessary work does make a living. But at least the ag jobs should not be going away, which is more than can be said about many services jobs in this turns into another depression. It may, depending on the political response.
 
Last edited:
Oil Skids As Russia Balks at More Cuts
Moscow favors letting cheap prices stir demand

Crude prices logged their worst day since the financial crisis after two of the world’s biggest oil producers failed to agree on whether to reduce global supply in the face of the coronavirus’s devastating effect on demand.
On Friday, Brent crude, the global benchmark, notched its largest one-day percentage decline since December of 2008, falling 9.4% to $45.27. U.S. crude futures declined 10.1% to $41.28 a barrel, their largest one-day percentage decline since November of 2014.

“It’s a disaster,” said Robert Yawger, director of the futures division at Mizuho Securities U.S.A.hat happened was really a worst-case scenario situation.”

Saudi Arabia was unable to persuade Russia to join its plan for deeper crude production cuts at a gathering of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries and its allies in Vienna. The failure signaled the end of a four-year collaboration between OPEC’s member-nations and 10 nonmembers led by Russia, which collectively was known as OPEC+.

“Today will be a regretful day,” Saudi energy minister Abdulaziz bin Salman told the gathering, according to people who were present, after Russian delegates insisted they wouldn’t debate further action before the group’s next scheduled meeting in June.

The splintering of OPEC+ exposes stark differences in the importance of oil in Russia and Saudi Arabia. Russia’s economy is more diversified and it doesn’t suffer as much as the Saudi kingdom when oil prices hover around $50 a barrel.

In addition, Moscow’s oil sales to China haven't suffered as much those of other producers. The Asian giant has continued to buy large quantities of Russia’s cheaper product for storage.

Unlike Saudi Arabia, Moscow favors not cutting supply and allowing cheap prices to stir demand, which could be compared to the economic path taken by the Chinese government in recent weeks, OPEC delegates said. “They are saying a deeper cut is not the answer, and we are being too reactive,” said an OPEC delegate.

OPEC’s failure to secure a deal with Russia highlights not only philosophical differences over how to address the demand decline, but also the breakdown of crucial personal relationships between the Saudi and Russian delegations.

From the start of the collaboration in 2016, former Saudi Energy Minister Khalid al-Falih often negotiated oil-production pacts with his Russian counterpart, Alexander Novak, ahead of OPEC+ meetings. The tete-atetes ensured that meetings went relatively smoothly, according to OPEC delegates.

The connection afforded Russia an enormous amount of clout in international energy and political circles. The country stood on equal footing with Saudi Arabia and often had veto power over the cartel’s decisions. Friday’s fallout puts into question the influence Saudi allowed Russia within the OPEC+, said Helima Croft, the commodities chief strategist at Canadian broker RBC.

That interplay changed when Mr. Falih was replaced by Prince Abdulaziz Bin Salman last September.

In reaction to the market turbulence, the new Saudi minister was pressed to secure a broad agreement on hefty output cuts by his brother, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, according to a Saudi oil adviser. And at the Vienna meeting, Prince Abdulaziz assumed Mr. Novak would eventually go along with the plan, the adviser added.

Some OPEC delegates blamed the failure on a hasty meeting called by Prince Abdulaziz in Vienna late


ajax-request.php
zoom_in.png

Russia wouldn’t agree to a Saudi plan to deepen production cuts at fields like this one in Almetyevsk to prop up crumbling crude prices. ANDREY RUDAKOV/BLOOMBERG NEWS


Thursday. There, he convinced fellow OPEC ministers to recommend production cuts through the end of the year, rather than the previously agreed three-month period, according to a person present. He told the room it was a “lot easier to relax cuts” than to negotiate an extension in June, the person added.

The OPEC’s ministers agreed to production cuts of 1 million barrels a day through the end of this year, to be shared among its 13 member nations. The proposal also called for another 500,000 barrels of daily cuts to be divided among the cartel’s 10 Russia-led oil-producing allies. Russia, the de facto leader of the additional countries that make up OPEC+, was still pushing to roll over existing cuts without any additional reductions and wait until June before considering any cuts beyond those agreed at the last alliance summit in December, according to several OPEC delegates.

The Saudi prince thought the Russians were bluffing when they balked at the output cuts they would be expected to make and thought they would ultimately agree to the reductions, an OPEC delegate said.

“That was his gamble and he did not win,” the delegate said
 
@innonimatu I just read the Bloomberg article. They do tell a different story the the WSJ. The WSJ is more conservative and their approach might be connected to this part of the Blommberg angle:

Bloomberg said:
But the decision to take on shale could backfire. While many drillers in Texas and other shale regions look vulnerable, as they’re overly indebted and already battered by rock-bottom natural gas prices, significant declines in U.S. production may take time. The largest American oil companies, Exxon Mobil Corp. and Chevron Corp., now control many shale wells and have the balance sheets to withstand lower prices. Some smaller drillers may go out of business, but many will have bought financial hedges against the drop in crude.

In the short run, Russia is in a good position to withstand an oil price slump. The [Russian] budget breaks even at a price of $42 a barrel and the finance ministry has squirreled away billions in a rainy-day fund. Nonetheless, the coronavirus’s impact on the global economy is still unclear and with millions more barrels poised to flood the market, Wall Street analysts are warning oil could test recent lows of $26 a barrel.

In Saudi Arabia, where the government is almost entirely dependent on oil to fund government spending, the economic impact will be immediate. Prince Abdulaziz and his half-brother Crown Prince Mohammed will have every incentive to boost production to maximize revenue as prices fall.

“Prices will fall until either Moscow or Riyadh call off the endurance contest” or North American production is massively curtailed, said Bob McNally, president of Rapidan Energy Advisors and a former National Security Council staffer.

As I said, the US oil business fully understands the boom bust cycle and how to deal with it.
 
Is there a limit to how much the Dow Jones is allowed to fall in 1 day?

The futures are puking right now, so Monday is going to be interesting.

Apparently the Saudis are crashing oil price on purpose with all their power.
 
Is there a limit to how much the Dow Jones is allowed to fall in 1 day?

The futures are puking right now, so Monday is going to be interesting.

Apparently the Saudis are crashing oil price on purpose with all their power.
There are points at which they will stop trading. Apparently -1300 isn't it.
 
Oil Skids As Russia Balks at More Cuts

The skid is now an outright crash. The Saudis have told Russia that since they opted to not play ball on cutting production the Saudis are going to drown the market on them. Next month's official pricing from the kingdom was lowered by eight dollars a barrel and they will pump as much as anyone wants at that price. With the market already in a glut they minimize the amount they have to sell at the price while they freeze basically everyone else out of the market because no one can produce as cheap as they can. The only question is whether they will maintain the pressure long enough to break all opposition, some opposition, or just back off once the Russians agree to play by the rules.
 
Ivan could always blow up Saudis Refinaries
With Trump still in office to shield and protect Russian interests they could get away with that.
 
Ivan could always blow up Saudis Refinaries
With Trump still in office to shield and protect Russian interests they could get away with that.

That is a risk.

EDIT: Just read that the NYSE futures market for Monday triggered the trading stop at down 5%. Gonna be interesting when the market opens. If trading suspends I can't figure how even Big Donnie Dump will be able to spin that into a claim that it's a good thing.
 
Last edited:
Russia's production costs are higher, but Saudi's economy is much more dependent on oil prices.
 
Russia's production costs are higher, but Saudi's economy is much more dependent on oil prices.

Saudis have more money to burn. Higher per capital as well so they can keep it up for longer.
 
Back
Top Bottom