Dresden- Justified or Not?

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Without popular support Hitler would have not been able to conduct his war and remain in power, especially when the war started to go from bad to worse

(Not signling you out Kitten, just using the quote cause it's the most elegant posts about this aspect of the topic)
Same can be said for anyone else who was president/PM/whatever of a country and started a war. Bush was elected by the people of America......so the people of america(the little 5 years old too) are to blame for all the dead civilians, I mean Iraqi Combatants, and dead Coaliton troops.


At the time, Dresden might of been justified. At the time, the Allies probably didn't know about the lack of flak, or that so many refugees where there. But hindsight is 20/20, or 20/10 in this case
 
Boleslav said:
Certainly! :goodjob:

If WWII was 'started' by anyone, it was the Nazis. As I've said far too often before on this thread, Nazis and Germans are far from being interchangeable.

... and we're kinda off-topic a bit here anyway.

They are not interchangeable so long as the Germans voted the Nazis into power.
 
Hitro said:
That's racism on the Nazi level. Plain and simple. Either you think about people as individuals or as members of larger entities (nations, races, etc.).
You obvious do the second.

Adler17 made the claim "It is remarkeable how many people especially in Britain try to justify a crime, which isnt justifieable."

I was only countering using his very tactic of gerneralizations.

Nobody in this thread was claiming "victim status" for the country, it is about individual people falling victim to a war crime.

WHAT?! I never said anyone was claiming "victim status" for a country. Read what I wrote:
Benderino said:
"It is remarkable how many people, especially in Germany, try to claim victim status during a war that was committed by their own people! You reap what you sow."

Nowhere do I mention the word "country".

Some ten year old child that was incinerated in the burning residential areas of Hamburg, Dresden, Cologne, etc. is as much an innocent victim of the war as a ten year old child that had to share the same fate in London, Coventry or Belgrade.

True, they didn't deserve to die, but that's war. Not all of them were 10 years old...or 2 years old, or elderly, or whatever. If your elected government throws the first stone, you have to be prepared to take the cosequences when your enemies throw back.
 
Benderino said:
True, they didn't deserve to die, but that's war. Not all of them were 10 years old...or 2 years old, or elderly, or whatever. If your elected government throws the first stone, you have to be prepared to take the cosequences when your enemies throw back.


So if Iraqi special forces had set of bombs in New York that would have been OK with you?
 
No, because Iraqi Freedom and World War 2 are incomparable. One is total war, one is a mere regional conflict. One's fight to stop fascism from conquering the world, the other is a fight to stop the shi'ites from killing Iyad Allawi.
 
Never the less America invaded another country. If that country was in any way capable of hitting the USA with spec ops or bombs/missiles as an act of war wouldn't they be allowed to target miltary targets or civilian infrastructure that supports your war effort (telecommunications, power plants, bridges etc). USA bombed their infrastructure.
 
No, because we aren't in total war

Once Iraq or the enemy dose something like attacking "soft targets" it opens the way for the US to respond in kind.

This rule also appiles to NUCLEAR WEAPONS, and CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
should be ovious to all the consequnces of going down such a path.
 
I doubt nuclear weapons would be used in retaliation for a conventional strike on the US homeland during a war the US started.
 
Benderino said:
No, because we aren't in total war.
So its OK for you to bomb other countries but not fo them to retaliate in kind. At least I was consistent with the British/Germans bombing each other in WW2.
 
I contend that the Dresden bombing was unjustified.

(1) Dresden was full of refugees and was attacked to give the Russians a demonstration of Allied air power.

Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.
- From an Internal RAF memo of January 1945.

(2) Churchill was uncomfortable with the bombing of Dresden because he felt the city wasn't all that valid a target compared with other possible bombing targets. He believed that the purpose of bombing Dresden was to spread terror amongst the German people.

It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, should be reviewed…I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives, such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction.
- Memo from Churchill to 'Bomber' Harris, March 1945.

(3) No attempt was made to limit civilian casualties.

My father was one of the "anonymous RAF meteorological officers (who) finally sealed Dresden's fate"….At the Dresden briefing, my father told me, the crews were given no strategic aiming point. They were simply told that anywhere within the built-up area of the city would serve.
He felt that Dresden and its civilian population had been the prime target of the raid and that its destruction and their deaths served no strategic purpose, even in the widest terms; that this was a significant departure from accepting civilian deaths as a regrettable but inevitable consequence of the bomber war; and that he had been complicit in what was, at best, a very dubious operation.

David Pedlow, writing in the Guardian 07/14/04

Finally, I like the last sentence of this next extract, to me it sums up what a lot of brave people have been arguing in this thread.

In Coventry, on the 50th anniversary of the attack, the German president Richard von Weizsäcker spoke of his nation's guilt; but when the Queen visited Dresden, she failed to lay a wreath at the cathedral ruins. Her advisers feared tabloid headlines. And, who knows, someone might throw an egg. It was a sad failure of diplomacy. Yet maybe a few have accepted that in war, however just the cause, no one emerges with clean hands. Saying sorry is not a sign of weakness.
 
That last quote was also from the Guardian, 03/03/04.
 
First of all we were involed in 2 wars in the last 5 years: Kosovo and Afghanistan. Secondly Hitler was never elected. He was appointed by Hindenburg because of the emergency laws he made. The conservatives thought Hitler would be a good puppet. They failed...
Nevertheless why it is so hard to accept the fact that Germans were also victims by the allies? It is only a matter of fact. This can´t be justified by the Holocaust and the equalization of Nazis and Germans is the same the Nazis made.
In such a war no nation kept a white west. But ot accept the fact there was crimes commited by each side and to regret them is the first step to avoid these in future.

Adler
 
@Adler,
I think most people who have seriously studied the Dresden bombing do not argue about it. It seems quite obvious it was a warcrime.
But there are warcrimes and warcrimes. And technically, a warcrimes is not per se a crime against humanity. The goal of the bombing of Dresden was not to kill as many innocent German people as possible. The goal was to kill the enemy.

In february 1945 it was a goal to hit the enemy hard. The wrong assumption (maybe another word?) was that not just the German Army was the enemy, but the German people.
Does that justify the bombing? No, I think not. Can we blame allied 'february 1945' officers for thinking the German people were the enemy?

Well, I think we can, but it is not an easy question. It is to easy to judge on it from our 2004 points of view.
 
Right on Boleslav and Adler17!

I find it very sad that any German poster who dares call Dresden a war crime - which opinion is shared by many non-Germans - is immediately labelled 'revisionist' and a Nazi-sympathizer.

I haven't seen one word by any German on this thread which in any way attempted to justify Nazi war crimes or lessen them by comparing them to Allied war crimes!
Please accept that I, and I assume the other German posters as well, was born long, long after WWII and have no interest at all in revising history to favor the Nazis.
I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of Germans abhors Hitler and the Nazis at least as much as non-Germans do!

I totally agree with Hitro that it is a racist attitude to condemn a whole people for the acts of a part, especially when you're talking about killing them in wholesale lots in a firestorm. Granted not all in Dresden were innocents - does that mean it's all right to fry 99 refugees, mostly women and children, to get one Nazi? Strange reasoning..
As you reap, so shall you sow... what total BS! Germany under Hitler was not a democratic state. He wasn't elected democratically in the first place - he only got 30something percent of the popular vote in 1933, remember, which means two thirds of the German populace DID NOT elect him - and after he was APPOINTED to be head of state by the Reichspresident, he turned Germany into a totalitarian state with no chance to remove him democratically.
And to link the deaths of these refugees with the Nazi death camps is even worse BS! Hitler was not given a mandate by the German people to kill Jews or other 'undesirables' (so-called by the Nazis, not me). In fact, the Nazis did everything they could to keep their murders secret, exactly because they knew they wouldn't have popular support for them!

To sum up, I will never be convinced it's OK to specifically target civilians and it can't be justified by saying it's their own fault for being German...or whatever else nationality, race or religion.
Of course, this goes for Guernica and the V1/V2 bombings as well - as well as Lidice, My Lai and wherever else...

Having got that off my chest - the level we should be discussing on is not whether civilian refugees deserved to die, or whether it was all right to target them, but whether that was the allies aim at Dresden, or whether they had different objectives and the civilians were 'collateral damage' on a massive scale.

I would be interested in more facts supporting the view that Dresden was a legitimate target with strategic significance - though those quotes by Boleslav look pretty conclusive to me.

@PrivateHudson - I didn't mean you specifically with those rather sick arguments I pointed out, but if you look through some of the other posts I'm sure you'll see what I mean!
 
Benderino said:
I have no sympathy for the victims of Dresden. Their inaction sanctioned the Holocaust, and so they should burn with my forefathers.

@PrivateHudson again: This is the kind of argument I meant...

@Stapel: I can understand that point of view - though whether the aim of Dresden was to kill 'innocent people' - let's rather say 'civilians' - is exactly the question
 
Dragonlord said:
Right on Boleslav and Adler17!



To sum up, I will never be convinced it's OK to specifically target civilians and it can't be justified by saying it's their own fault for being German...or whatever else nationality, race or religion.
Of course, this goes for Guernica and the V1/V2 bombings as well - as well as Lidice, My Lai and wherever else...

:goodjob: Exactly, very well summed up. No one is attacking or questionning per se the Allies war effort. No one is comparing them with the Nazis. All we are saying is that Dreden's bombing was not justified in the way it was carried out on Feb 13, 1945, that's all.

Only because I refute and contend the manner in which Dresden was bombed that day doesn't make me a Nazi or a revisionist. I'm very glad the Allies won, thanks God for that.

As I've already pointed out, Benderino's arguments on Dresden bombing are close to being philonazi...he's heartless...
 
Dragonlord said:
@PrivateHudson again: This is the kind of argument I meant...

@Stapel: I can understand that point of view - though whether the aim of Dresden was to kill 'innocent people' - let's rather say 'civilians' - is exactly the question

I think there was definately more to it than killing civilians. I don't think there are good reason to think the allies decided to 'kill some more civilians', just like that.
This what makes the bombing of Dresden a warcrme, and not a crime agaianst humanity, I think.
 
Stapel said:
I think there was definately more to it than killing civilians. I don't think there are good reason to think the allies decided to 'kill some more civilians', just like that.
This what makes the bombing of Dresden a warcrme, and not a crime agaianst humanity, I think.

Well, but look at those quotes Boleslav posted - they definitely point in that direction for me!
 
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