[DRN-001] BtS Any Which Way You Can

[pigswill]

Got it.

Will play tonight.

Some thoughts:
Monuments are cheap (1whip) culture to expand borders.
Courthouses are good for cutting down expenses.
We could use some units for fog-busting down south.
If we switched to Hereditary Rule and Caste and pack Washington and Chicago with cheap units they could grow to pop11 and run lots of scientists or merchants (slightly longer term). In the shorter term Chicago under HR could pop out workers and settlers very quickly with all the seafood around.
Wonder-wise once we've got marble connected we could look at Mausoleum and Glib: go for aesthetics and literature.
Edit: Thinking about barbs if we've got great wall we don't want to fogbust too much. Barb spawning depends on total area under fog of war. Barbs will be more of a nuisance to AI than us so let them grow.

 

[doronron]

Good stuff, there. In addition, I believe Courthouses provide espionage points in BtS. That should kick start a lot of programs.

As for the Barbs, do we want to leave barbs on our home island? Certainly leaving them alone elsewhere is alright. I definitely agree with that.

EDIT: Basically, I'm trying to see where you're going with this particular tactic. My level of play is on the lower end of the scale, so my approach to undiscovered land is to reveal as much of it as possible to keep barb threats at bay and find new potential city spots.

 

[njorls]

I think what he's saying is that the more fog of war out there, the more barbarians spawn. Any that spawn on our island won't be able to enter our borders and will be easy training dummies for our armies. While the other civs will have to deal with them inside their borders. So we should fogbust as little as possible to make more barbarians spawn overall, it will slow down the AI more than us.

Research: What do you think of Monotheism next to get Organised Religion? +25% production in Washington alone is nice, as well as every city with Confucianism. I agree with Aesthetics and Literature for Mausoleum and Great Library.

Tech trade: Can still trade Code of Laws for Alphabet.

A few tips Sorceress:

Monuments are a very good first build. Monuments are even better with Charismatic (one of Lincoln's traits, they give 1 as well as 1 ) so they should be given immediate priority. You were building a Library in Boston and an Archer in Philadelphia when monuments would be faster ways to get those important first border pops. In general we're at the point where only cities with barracks should produce units.

Chicago is running 4 citizens. Those are very weak, they would have been better off working tiles. Chicago is also building a Confucian Monastary. A lighthouse would be +1 food to all water tiles. Since Chicago has access to 2 clams and fish, a lighthouse would be 3 extra total free food, which is very powerful. A courthouse should probably be a bigger priority here than a monastary.

The Great Prophet you settled gave 2 hammer and 5 gold in Washington. That's not that bad, but he could have built a shrine in New York. That would have helped spread our religion, both to our cities, giving 1 and 1 in that city, and 1 in New York. It would also help spread Confucianism to Zara and Cathy who most likely would change to our religion giving us a relations bonus.

The research slider: You should keep it at a small deficit or a small surplus. You had a comfortable pile of gold at the start (41 gold). We need more research, not a bigger pile of gold which doesn't really do a lot for us.

*Edit*: Nevermind about the research slider, I see what you did there. You set it low to give more gpt for the last turn of monotheism. It's really not needed as the overflow carries over to the next tech researched, so you don't really need to bother doing this.

*Edit 2*: Stuff I should have done better in my round:

Running 2 scientists in Chicago too early, I should wait on specialists until all food tiles are worked

When Boston grew to size 2 I should have changed to a monument, then whipped it next turn

 

[Sorceresss]

[1] A few tips Sorceress [...]

[2] The Great Prophet you settled gave 2 hammer and 5 gold in Washington. That's not that bad, but he could have built a shrine in New York. [...]

[3] Nevermind about the research slider, I see what you did there. You set it low to give more gpt for the last turn of [poly]theism. It's really not needed as the overflow carries over to the next tech researched, so you don't really need to bother doing this.

1. I welcome tips from you guys. I had stopped playing at C4 for the past 1½ year : I had forgotten certain fine points of the game's mechanics... I selected the Confucean Monastery in Chicago because I knew how to get it fast, and it would then give us a culture & research boost. The other production items appeared to take too much time*.

2. Like I stated in my analysis, I mostly did that because, at 60% research, we were running a gold deficit -- deficit that could only get worse with the founding of more cities. Our reserve was, at the beginning of my turn, 41 gold -- and melting. I made a purely financial choice, exploiting the super-specialist's gold boost -- keeping in mind a projected gold/research ratio for the next dozens of turns.

3. It's an old habit of mine. I like to profit from the end of the research cycle's overflow with a quick gold-boost. In this case, the profit was +19 gold on the very last turn of my Polytheism research. I just could not resist.

* When it's my turn to play, I try not to tie you guys up with long-term projects. That's why I selected the Monastery in Chicago and Polytheism in research : I knew they were not the best choices, but they had the advantage of being relatively fast to complete. So, when pigswill played after me, he got to select a new research item on his very first turn, not being tied-up by a much more long-term project I might have started. I might not make the very best choices, but at least, I make cautious choices that do not impose upon my team8s any heavy, long-term commitments.

 

[doronron]

2. Like I stated in my analysis, I mostly did that because, at 60% research, we were running a gold deficit -- deficit that could only get worse with the founding of more cities. Our reserve was, at the beginning of my turn, 41 gold -- and melting. I made a purely financial choice, exploiting the super-specialist's gold boost -- keeping in mind a projected gold/research ratio for the next dozens of turns.

I probably would've used the prophet for the shrine, but money is money.

* When it's my turn to play, I try not to tie you guys up with long-term projects. That's why I selected the Monastery in Chicago and Polytheism in research : I knew they were not the best choices, but they had the advantage of being relatively fast to complete. So, when pigswill played after me, he got to select a new research item on his very first turn, not being tied-up by a much more long-term project I might have started. I might not make the very best choices, but at least, I make cautious choices that do not impose upon my team8s any heavy, long-term commitments.

It is the playing member's perogative on how to best manage the empire during their turnset. The only real issues that might cause problems is declaring an unexpected war without consulting the rest of the team or setting up lists of build orders in our cities (which I think I may have been guilty of in my last set -- forgot to clear them out before posting). Don't feel you need to hamstring your gameplay only to accomplishing goals within your turnset. If there is something you feel needs to be done with the empire that will spill over into the next player's turn, do it. This applies to all of us.

And again, if you encounter a situation that you feel requires discussion with the other players, you can stop in the middle of a turn set to post and ask for advice.

 

[Sorceresss]

Take into account, doronron, that I have not played a lot of C4 for the past 19 months and that this is my very first SG.

Consequently, I prefer to not tie-up the gameflow by processing my turn quickly and by cautiously not committing to deep, long-term projects -- even if I would have the free privilege, as stated in your previous post, to play as I would see fit.

Also, what limits me a lot in all PC games is that I am too defensive & cautious by psychological character.

For example, when I saw that we only had 41 gold left and that we were going to run a deficit at 60% research, especially with a Settler on the way, I prefered financial prudence. (In my personal life, I always over & above ).

 

[njorls]

Financial prudence would have been settling the commerce city closer to the capital. The one on the riverside near the fish. Cities are more expensive the farther they are away from the capital.

41 gold is plenty, and a deficit at 60% isn't that bad, it's to be expected at this point in the game.

You really shouldn't be in a hurry to get your turnset finished. The next player is European time I believe and won't be able to play the next day your time anyway. And we have the standard 24/48 to play so by all means take your time. Before I play I post my goals for research and buildings for critique so that others can weigh in on their opinions.

If you're rusty on strategy this is a great guide: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165632

 

[Sorceresss]

Financial prudence would have been settling the commerce city closer to the capital. The one on the riverside near the fish. Cities are more expensive the farther they are away from the capital.

Well...I selected the old Prague location, further north, for 2 reasons :

1. The saved game I inherited contained a flag recommending that spot ;

2. I wanted to extend our civ's general borders further up to the north.

I admit that "financial prudence" was not a consideration in my founding of the new city (Philadelphia).

 

[pigswill]

For me the major benefit of Succesion Games is that they give me an opportunity to get input from other people (and make my own observations) so that I get to think outside my normal solo game.
If we kick around ideas and get agreement on strategies and objectives then its ok to commit to objectives (a wonder, a war, research path or whatever) that span several turnsets.

 

[Sorceresss]

I am the opposite of a bossy "control-freak" in what concerns team-play. I enjoy variety, diversity, originality. Consequently, if other team8s make decisions that surprise me or puzzle me, I don't mind.

Of course, there is always the question : Are we playing to win? If one wishes to win at all costs, then there is more pressure & stress to plan & coördinate a rational, optimized strategy.

Well...I do not play to win ! For me, the Civilization series is about the growth, the rise & fall of historical societies & cultures. I have a more "chaotic" & "organic" perception of the series : the opposite of chess.

When I play alone, I never ask myself, on each & every turn, "what are the best moves to win?". I role-play. If I'm an Egyptian ruler, I will try to play in (what I imagine is) an ancient Egyptian mind-set. If the Roman defeats me in 50 BC : well...why not? -- time to start a new game !

If most of you guys ever get bored with this game, feel free to express it. I would not mind moving along to something else. Up to now, for me, the impressive high-point of our game has been doronron 's destruction of the Holy Roman Empire : what a bold satanic sacrilege !

 

[yena]

Hey, this has been a good game so far, so don't let it degenerate into some why-did-you-do-that discussion. Everyone is bound to disagree with some aspects of the play (I do), but this is a collective effort, and you do the best possible with what you are given. It is certainly OK to give constructive advice to others, and when given such advice you should read it, consider it, and possibly ignore it if it doesn't suit your play-style. But keep in mind that playing in SGs is a good way to make you a better player just because the discussion of possible alternatives. This is especially important now that we are all BtS beginners.

So, let's move on and enjoy this game and talk about future plans, instead of having an excessive discussion about past events that cannot be changed.

 

[Sorceresss]

Hey, this has been a good game so far, so don't let it degenerate into some why-did-you-do-that discussion. [...] So, let's move on and enjoy this game and talk about future plans, instead of having an excessive discussion about past events that cannot be changed.

No need to worry, yena : we were only exchanging views concerning how we perceive the SG model.

In general, I don't play C4 as if it were chess, but I'm OK with those veterans who wish to optimize their choices to fit into a winning strategy.

There are no "degenerates" on this thread.

 

[pigswill]

Hafta agree with Yena.

Diversity improves the game.

We're here because we want to be.

I make (many) mistakes. If there's a better way to do things I want to hear about it. But a lot depends on how its said.

Anyway back to the game....

here's the save (125bc): http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90414/MDR_BC-0125.CivBeyondSwordSave

Here's a resume.

T150. Swop builds. Washington to settler, NY to lighthouse, Chicago to courthouse, Boston to monument, Philly to monument.

T151.
Poly>Mono(OR).
Buddhism spreads in Boston.
Chariots head south to prepare way for settler.

T152. zzz

T153.
Boston whips monument.

T154.
Boston. Monument>Lib.
NY whips LH.

T155.
New York: LH>Lib.
ZY demands CoL, 'be off with you' we say but trade CoL to ZY for alphabet. No other worthwhile trades.
Washington whips settler (2pop).

T156.
Washington: settler>confu monastery.

T157.
Monotheism>Aesthetics.
Washington: con mon>con miss.
Revolt to HR and OR (2turns).

T158. Anarchy.

T159.
Atlanta founded:

Costs shoot up (OR+city maintenance), research down to 50%.
Atlanta starts monument.

T159.
New York: Library>CH.

T160 zzz.

T161 zzz

T162.
Chicago whips CH (3pop!)

T163.
Chicago: CH>Con mon.

T164.
Chicago: Con mon>LH.
Philly: Mon>archer.

T165.
Chicago's borders expand, copper now available.

End of set observations:

Demographics are ok so far.

I levelled out espionage points:

Boston pops borders in 5 turns making marble available. I freed up some workers for copper mine(and marble quarry) but they haven't moved yet.

Workboat still exploring but nothing interesting found.

We get a GS in Chicago in 5 turns. Worth debating what to do with it. My recommendatin would be academy in Washington. Might lightbulb philosophy whch is always a good trick if we're going for liberalism race.

Aesthetics completes in 5 turns. Maybe literature for Glib? Maybe something else?

We're running research at 50% at +4gpt though we were losing cash earlier in my set so its a good job we have a reserve.

 

[yena]

Got and looked at the save. Will play in about 12 hours, but here is the plan. Suggestions are welcome.

I think we have enough cities for the time being, but we need more workers. We are behind on spying but ahead on research, so how about running 10% espionage rate for a while?

As a short-term goal I suggest going for literature and building the great library in Chicago. We should could also build the National Epic, perhaps also in Chicago? Parthenon would be nice to have now that we have marble, but not in Chicago. Perhaps in Philadelphia? Even if we lost the race we would get more money for research.

 

[njorls]

Just checked the save.

Wow, Brennus doesn't have Agriculture at 125 BC. Never seen anything like that before. He must not have any grain resources. Looks like we're tech leader.

I like Lit and Glibrary in Chicago. If we get those then maybe the academy should go there. We don't need Philo yet, it'd be nice if the AI discovered that first.

I agree we need more workers, we're at 4 workers for 6 cities. But I think once we got those we should do more workers and settlers. A controlled expansion would be in order, we want to fill up our island as soon as we can.
The next 2 northern cities are jungle so they'll take a while to get chopped and pay for themselves.

 

[doronron]

I disagree on the city thing. We need at least one more. We must get that iron in the north! Otherwise, I think the plan's a good one.

 

[yena]

I'm not against expansion, but we must keep an eye on the economy. Settling the iron spot at once would be very expensive, so I would prefer a slow north-wards expansion, and I definitely think that a couple of workers more would make a big difference.

 

[azaris]

My 2 cents:

We need to make a decision on the diplomatic stance. Who are our friends and who our foes? Cathy will be a dangerous competitor later on if she engulfs ZY. Could we try to convert ZY and make him our ally? He techs pretty well and could be useful for trading techs.

I agree with pushing espionage to 10%. You can usually do that pretty comfortably on Prince and still stay ahead of the pack. Otherwise you fall behind at least 1-2 AI civs. Note for example that we have nothing on Brennus.

We need to prop up our economy before building more cities. We have no commerce rich tiles ATM and few courthouses. With that in mind, our research priority should be Mathematics->Calendar and work those silks. Followed by Currency.

Sidelining off to Literature to get the GLibrary is not worth it if it means stifling your economy so much that your lost beakers do not match the possible future returns of the GLibrary.

 

[pigswill]

I go along with Glib in Chicago. We need to improve the economy before expanding much further but we can do that with a couple more CH and working a few more cottages.
I don't see a need to race for iron. Copper will give us maces if required but axes, spears and cats will probably suffice if we need to dislodge someone from northern iron city.

 

[yena]

No new cities this time, but we got two new workers. Marble and copper are on-line, and we will be able to whip the great library in Chicago on the next turn.I also decided to build the great lighthouse in Washington to improve our economy and it will be done in three turns. A few cottages have matured and some courthouses have been built, allowing me to run at 50-60% science most of the time.

The slaves of Washington revolted, causing delays and money problems. I chose to pay to put it down, and it means that our funds are quite low and I could not afford to increase the espionage slider. Could this be caused by AI spies? Once we get our economy in order we really ought to do some spying on our own.

Catharine wanted to trade Mathematics for Aesthetics. It was mentioned in the pre-turn discussion that we ought to keep her back, so I refused. Brennus demanded CoL but I thought it would be safe to refuse. He is not a friend of ours anyhow. Instead of trading for it, we started researching Mathematics after Literature and it will be done in 4 turns (or 3 with some MM).

Our workboat found nothing but barbarians, and should head north to take a closer look at Babylon.

The save:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/109417/MDR_AD-0100.CivBeyondSwordSave