Dubrovnik not a city-state?

[generalwar]

About the game, the town of Ragusa is obviously the city-state of Dalmatia, and there is no relation with Sicily. Ragusa was an Italian City-State, that is an independent country of neo-latin origin. His founders, running away from Slavs and Avars, created Ragusa on an island in the Adriatic Sea, and not far from the coast. It was the only Dalmatian-Italian State, in fact the remaining part of Dalmatia belonged to the Venetian Republic. It was considered the 5th Italian Maritime Republic. So, it is wrong to affirm that it was never Italian. In the following centuries the city suffered a process of Slavification, till in the XIV century the language spoken was Croatian. Ragusa became the major center of propagation of Croatian literature and folks. But the upper classes were still Italian and Ragusa many authors wrote Italian. The Croatian name Dubrovnik was never officially utilized, and even the Austrians ignored it. Ragusa's administration was ruled by Italians up 1899. Then, at the beginning of 1900s, because of the Slave pressure, above all their political power, the Italians became a small minority.

You forgot something. In mediaval age and until the end of 19th centuary, it was shameful to speak Croatian, so every educated man had to speak Latin, Italian and some time after that german. Why do you says "In the following centuries the city suffered a process of Slavification.". How can suffer, if it's Croatian land. Of course that many people were Italian, but not all. Of course that Croatian cost towns were populated by Italians because "our" king sold them our whole cost.

You have to know something about Croatian history.

Croats came to the eastern cost of the Adriatic see in 7th and 8th centuary. Until 925. Croatia was ruled dukes. In 925., king Tomislav became Croatian king and he has expanded Croatian boundary to the north in wars with Hungaria. During the king Petar Krešimir IV. reign(1058-1074), Dalmatian cities and and Neretva's district are coming under rule. In 1097., Croatian last national(means, last Croatian king, that was a Croat) king dies in a battle against king Ladislav. In 1001., Croatian-Hungarian Union came, and Croatia was in it, until 1301., when the Arpadović dinasty dies out. Then after that many kings replaced until 1526. In 1409 king Ladislav made a shameful decision. He sold out Dalmatia,Zadar,Novigrad,Vrana and island Pag. That year talianisation started. All northern islands decided to give up to Venetian Republik. The Venetians became so greedy and they wanted even towns Šibenik and Trogir. Now, The Venetian Republic put Zadar's aristocracy to rule Zadar and Venetian duke sent some Venetian families to populate city and that was done in other cities. Croatians were good only for physical jobs and they wanted to make Italy from eastern Adriatic cost. In 1527. Croatia became part of Habsburg monarchy...

So, I'm angry that someone is still shittin' on our state after so many centuries under foreigners foot, that I'm enough of that. Modern Italians done the same thing after they got Istra for their services to allied forces during the 1. world war. The secret London deal, by which Italians should get south Tirol, parts of eastern Adriatic sea, and some other german and turkish colonies. But they got Istra, some northern islands and town Zadar. They didn't get much more because they were so bad at Galician front that Allies were angry on themselfes because Italia instead to help them, was doing completly otherwise so British forces had to save them. And some Croatian politicians revealed London's deal. During The WW2 Croatian fascist- Ustaše, came to power and gave almost entire Croatian to Italy, so, Croatians, who at first thought they will have their independent state after so many centuries, dissapointed seeing that Ustaše are giving Croatian land to Italy so many Croats joined to Partizan army who liberated many parts of todays Croatia and BiH. Comrade Tito wanted Trieste to become part of Yugoslavia and I'm happy that didn't happen because Trieste is Italian and Croatian people have standed all this time under foreigners foot only because of moto: Defend yours and don't touch others land!" And today, Croatia was robbed by Croatian politicians who, during the Fatherland War, sold all banks to foreign banks, many companies bancrupted, some were razed. Why history has to repeat, it's so sadly . So, I'm happy with my state. Many of you would says it's a small state. No, it isn't. It's the best state on the world. Esspecially geographic positon is good. We have nice warm sea, mountains, plains, forrests, a lot of water. You can't imagine how suprised I was when I heard that in other states you can't drink water directly from the pipe. My mom was in Hungaria few months ago and she said that water from pipe has taste like iron.

So, what I want to say is: don't talk lies about history, I hate that deep from my soul. I know that I should be more precise in this post, but then, it would become an article and this is Civ fanatic Forum.
I'm sorry from yawing from the topic, but I was really angry about this.This guy is obviously Italian or Serb, probably Italian because he's *in about our cost. I don't want to read that on Civ fanatics forum. This last war, during which I was a baby, was so disgusting , so many lies, anger. neighbours become enemies. So, I'm enough of listening stupid things about Croatia. If you still think like that dude, OK. Be stupid, but, don't write that here. You can read very objectively books about Croatia. I recommend you Ferdo Šišić's History of Croats, since 600. until 1918. This dude died in 1940. so he's writing objectively about Serbian history too. You'll find everything. Wikipedia isn't objective always, you know that.

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodaja_Dalmacije_Mlecima_1409. Link about how and when was Dalmatia sold. That's all from me.

 

[generalwar]

There are 2 Ragusa cities btw:
1. Italian-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragusa,_Italy
2.Croatian-http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik_%28Ragusa_of_Dalmatia%29

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik
I forgot 1 important thing. At first, Roman was populated with Roman, not Italians. When Dubrovnik was based, term Italian didn't exist. First Italian poem on Italian was Saint Francis Himn to creatures in 13th centuary, while some signs on Croatian exist since 8th centuary and first long inscription on Croatian was in 1097 on the island Krk. So, how could Dubrovnik been Italian, if Italians didn't exist at that time ? Romans were those first habitants, not Italians. I know that Italians believe they are Rome's heir, but they were never good at warring like Romans were, so...




I guess that Ragusa is Italian city-state because, other city-states have modern names, e.g.Belgrade. should be named Singidunum. That was Roman name for it

 

[wapamingo]

why do you think everyone is against you?

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Singidunum sounds like a celtic name to me.

 

[Keks]

There are 2 Ragusa cities btw:
1. Italian-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragusa,_Italy
2.Croatian-http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik_%28Ragusa_of_Dalmatia%29

I guess that Ragusa is Italian city-state because, other city-states have modern names, e.g.Belgrade. should be named Singidunum. That was Roman name for it

Yeah, and Florence must be the one from South Carolina, otherwise it would be called Firenze.

 

[generalwar]

Singidunum sounds like a celtic name to me.

And it is. Romans took it from old Celtic name for Belgrade. You are right.
I've found this information on Belgrades town page, so they aren't lying about their towns old name.

 

[generalwar]

why do you think everyone is against you?

I don't think that anybody is against me, besides that dude who has written that.

 

[wapamingo]

And it is. Romans took it from old Celtic name for Belgrade. You are right.
I've found this information on Belgrades town page, so they aren't lying about their towns old name.

Indeed, most European cities are build on ruins of old cities and given new names. Old people move, new people come in.

 

[Infiltrator]

I don't think that anybody is against me, besides that dude who has written that.

He probably isn't against you either. Unless an Italian programmer went like..

"Ha ha ha - haha ha ha!! I'll put the wrong name of the province and generalwar @ civfanatics will be so angry! So very angry!! MY MISSION WILL BE COMPLETE!!! MWAHAHAHA!!!!"

Joke aside, I think it is being unfair, unless of course they mean the italian ragusa, which I admit I have no knowledge of in terms of history.

 

[Mercade]

I seem to recall that when we had the screenshot of the list of city states, it only listed the names, and not the countries of those city states, so it's not a statement from Firaxis/2K side. Most likely Arioch or whomever classified the countries made a googling error and put it as Italy because that's the first one that comes up on Wikipedia (I made the same mistake before looking at the disambiguation). 97.6% chance it'll turn out to be Dubrovnik. No point in getting upset until the game comes out and there's actually a page long story about Sicily. End of story.

 

[wapamingo]

so all of sudden I remembered this thread where the OP was arguing about Ragusa the city-state. Here I was, and others as well, arguing that it's Dubrovnik Ragusa is referring to and not some rather historically mute city of Ragusa (Italy).

Was I ever surprised that when I did to look up civpedia that indeed this is Ragusa (italy). The funny thing is, the pedia entry was of a non-significant referral tone on Ragusa (in particular ending sentence). Ha!

Anyways, it's not really important as the game has too many other issues.

 

[MadRat]

It is Dubrovnik, Ragusa is just its old name. I recognized it at once.

It is a beautiful ciity. I have been there a few times. Well, that was before the war - I hope it has been fixed up again.

Rat

 

[Nutteria]

Yeah Dubrovnik was for the longest time a city state.Massive overlook from Firaxis.

 

[daunt]

historically mute city of Ragusa (Italy)

well, I wouldn't be too harsh on that. Ragusa/former Hybla was a very important city-state in greek times, target of many failed assaults (it was called for that "Hibla Audax", brave Hibla), was the only city in Sicily to resist for a long time against the arabs, and was one of the only cities in Sicily to reach some degree of independence during the several dominations that followed the arab departure. It also was deeply involved in the sicilian vespers. All in all, it's probably the most historically significant center of Sicily. It's actually among the most beautiful cities in the world I've ever seen...

Anyway, the choice had to be limited. Anyone could say "where's my city?" just like many people wanted their nation in previous chapters of Civ. I mean... in central and northern Italy, every city has been a state for centuries, every single one of them. Also Germany was in a similar situation, the empire was a mere formal entity while cities were in facts autonomous. Or Cordoba in Spain, quite important but it's not in the list.
But please, nationalism is a cancer that should be kept out of these boards. It has already done enough damage to this world.

 

[BluebeardRex]

I cannot believe that you have all missed that this is actually a representation of the City of Rag, USA. The city of Rag, returned to Federal control in 1998 after 136 years of independence, secceded from the Union, and from the nascent state of Minnesota in 1863 in protest (though many say fear) over the Civil War, which they felt did not best represent their interests.

Based on a small island in The Lake of the Woods, above the 49th parallel in the extreme north of Minnesota, the initial declaration went unnoticed by the Federal authorities, as the declaration was only sent to nearby Oak Island, the residents of which laughed it off, and to Canada. The Canadian declaration proved most problematic for the Federal government, as the francophonic civil servant to who's desk it finally made it in late 1865 (it is suggested that it was passed from desk to desk as it was thought to be an elaborate joke), mis-read it, official noted it, and presuming it was a declaration of feality, duly sent off what was ultimately interpreted as legal international recognition.

As their's was a small island not considered to be in need of a state or federal police station or barracks, and their trade was with Oak Island, and since their recognition, Canada, no-one was any the wiser until the implementation of conscription before World War II. At the time, the draft would have affected 3 men, who objected on the basis of they were not beholding to the government, and pointed out that there had been no Federal or state election booth held on the Island since their independence - this conveniently ignoring that there had been no booth on the island in the 5 years of Minnesota's existence as a state.

The people of Rag insisted on their independence from state and Union, defying ultimately leading to secretary of state Cordell Hull personally contacting the island about the matter, and his deputy and successor to be Ed Stettinius visiting it in 1942. Stettinius' handling of the affair was said to have been a chief key for Hull eventually promoting him, according to some sources. Stettinius, while on vacation at home in Chicago, was been contacted by Hull, who knew him to be both diplomatic and having an understanding of the local mindset, and asked him to make a Federal visit and see what he could find out about the situation. Stettinius' first telegraph was to say he would see what he could do, and 48 hours later, his second qupped "Peace with honor stop City of Rag had joined the war on the Allied side stop mobilising all available troops and equipment stop"

Stettinius's "Rag Treaty" was simply an announcement of feality, common interests and economic cooperation between the two "nations". There was also an unwritten agreement to prioritise use of wood from the island for the war effort - a deal made good on Stettinius being named as deputy secretary of state in 1943. The treaty was hand written and coppied by one of his daughters and was to be framed and presented to President Roosevet by Hull. The other copy, was pinned up in the local shop, where it is now framed, conspicuously showing pinholes where other notices of lost cats and cars for sale were pinned over it.

The two states became interchangeable over the following 50 years, and the excercise of Rag independence was soley in their choosing to ignore the Federal and State elections, which still required their travel to Oak Island. When Christine Barshefsky, a regular holidaymaker on the island, was named Secretary of State, she was sent a letter by the Chairman of the Rag Chamber of Commerce, and ex-officio state head of Rag since independence, telling her of the last Secretary of State to visit the island. With Clinton's nodding assent, she aggressively pursued a policy of re-assimilation of Rag, and using the full power of US economic might, promised a federally funded deputy sheriff's office in Rag, a tax break for those travelling to the USA for work or education, and a locally manned election booth every second November. The matter was voted on by show of hands at the city's Summer Festival of the Lake, one evening with Barshevsky in attendance. Supposedly the only person voting against was a child of three though it is believed that her older sister put her up to it. This treaty is now in the Clinton Presidential Library, and, allegedly, in a filing cabinet in the deputy sheriff station "for safe keeping".

As the first treaty happened during the war, and was thus classified as secret international negotiation, and the reassimilation outside of the official view of the Federal government, and on both occasions on holiday trips, it was kept largely out of the media, and subsequently out of the eyes of the internet (which is still not easily accessible on the island). Most of this can be found in the Rag City Museum (a room at the rear of the Oates' General Store), or in the pamphlet The Mouse That Roared - the history of City State of Rag, and how it turned the War in the favour of the Allies, and enjoyably light-hearted look at the history up to 1963, and available for $2 to visitors to the city as a photocopy of the original.

So, as you can see, it is not some European city-state this refers to, but rather the only state that successfully seceeded during the civil war.