Dune Wars 1.4.6 feedback

Regarding the homeworld screen, the version in this patch is version 1 which has no background other than the Guild guys at the bottom. The screenshot Koma posted in the offworld thread was of the next version he is working on. I think he is planning to take all the feedback into account for the next revision.
 
AH63
The AI has a habit of building forts and outposts on bonus resources, when what it really should do is build them *adjacent* to bonus resources and then build the
Alternatively, change the fort/outpost so that it grants the resource (so its the same as building the appropriate improvement on it, but instead of tile yield it gives defensive bonus and culture).

Also, what is the difference between the outpost and fort? Do we really need both?
What does the mining camp do? It doesn't seem to have tile yield bonuses, and bonus resources normally get discovered only if you work the tile.

AH64
Suspensor gunship should upgrade to and be made obsolete by the suspensor destroyer. Otherwise it clutters the build queues.
 
Woah, I didn't even notice the Homeworld screen was in this.

Playing as Ix, the screen appeared almost entirely black.
Just missing art?

AH56b. The art isn't missing, that's all there is so far.

I was also able to cheaply purchase units like Sardaukar (which I didn't have the resource for), Worm riders and Fedaykin (which I did have the resource for but not the tech) and Lasgun troopers (which I did not have the tech for).

The first part is a duplicate of DA32. The second part is because you can purchase any unit in your current era, which may be slightly ahead of your tech. If the era flags are correct, this "seems" OK.

AH56c. Era values in modified tech file are probably all scrambled, need review.

Purchased worm riders and fedaykin didn't start with the Sandrider promotion (they should), and nothing starts with the promotion from Aggressive trait.

AH56d. Some units are awarded promotions using python when built. (Sandrider). These need to be awarded on purchased units. Perhaps manually calling the onUnitBuilt event?

AH56e. Figure out a way to get default promotions from traits, like Aggressive or Protective, onto purchased units.

Worm riders and Fedaykin aren't usnig the Worm-rider graphic you guys made when on desert tiles (I'm sure you know this already).

AH56f. If Deliverator releases the files, I can add it to the game. I gather the animation is challenging.
 
AH63
The AI has a habit of building forts and outposts on bonus resources, when what it really should do is build them *adjacent* to bonus resources and then build the
Alternatively, change the fort/outpost so that it grants the resource (so its the same as building the appropriate improvement on it, but instead of tile yield it gives defensive bonus and culture).
Also, what is the difference between the outpost and fort? Do we really need both?

I am not sure how this works in vanilla, but the "intention" was to work the same way.

What does the mining camp do? It doesn't seem to have tile yield bonuses, and bonus resources normally get discovered only if you work the tile.

What is the exact name of the improvement you mention here? I only recognize surface mine, deep mine, core mine. There used to be a "mining station" but that is removed in 1.4.6.
 
I am not sure how this works in vanilla, but the "intention" was to work the same way.

I haven't played vanilla in a long time, but I don't think there are forts that give cultural spread.
For one thing, forts in vanilla aren't buildable outside cultural borders, right?
I think there must be some extra programming here getting the AI to build the forts outside their borders on bonus resources.

The intention in Dunewars seemed to be for these forts to be culture-spreaders, which is a new feature. Basically so it will let you expand your territory and claim bonus resources outside your city boundaries.
Which is fine, but the AI needs to use them better.

I only recognize surface mine, deep mine, core mine. There used to be a "mining station" but that is removed in 1.4.6.

Mining station was what I meant, didn't check to see if this was removed. If its gone, then ignore my comment.
 
I haven't played vanilla in a long time, but I don't think there are forts that give cultural spread. For one thing, forts in vanilla aren't buildable outside cultural borders, right?

You are right, this is not in vanilla. But there is no specific DW code for this either. So it must be somewhere in the "DNA" of DW, probably in Revolutions.
 
AH65
Marble contract resource seems to be bugged: I think you can keep building multiple landing stages with the contract. Leto II has 15 marble resources.

AH66
Medium hornet should be a fighter/bomber, and so should get the interception mission.
should probably have lower strength too; the strength jump 100%+ (from the light hornet and assault hornet) is too much.
 
AH65
Marble contract resource seems to be bugged: I think you can keep building multiple landing stages with the contract. Leto II has 15 marble resources.

The marble contract is allowed any number of times. Is it possible that is the only contract available anymore? For example, if you build a landing stage and get the picklist of contracts to choose, are there any other contracts available to you? If there are no other contracts available besides marble, then this is unexpected but correct behavior. If there are other contracts available, the change we need is to help the AI pick a variety of contracts instead of the same one again.
 
Its probably the only contract available, they run out quickly with all players competing for them, but it would still be better to cap it at 1, or 1 per civ. Its just silly for a player to have 15+ of some fairly useless resource.
You don't let players get infinite copies of other resources, why this one?

I also think Pundi Rice as a +2 health resource would be more interesting (and more canonical) than Caladanian wine. Rice (and fish products) were the main exports of Caladan.

AH67
Why do salt flats give a defensive bonus? There is nothing about the soil being infected with salt that makes it easier to defend. This seems like a remnant from forests/tubers to me.
 
AH59b
Thopter bonus vs guardsmen is particularly bad because missile troopers are guardsmen. So falcon thopters beat missile troopers in a fair fight!

AH63
Scorpions also need a general boost. Scorpions should be bad vs cities, but good in the field. They're not high enough strength to deal with melee atm. There should be a need for anti-tank infantry to fight off scorpions.

AH64
Military complex tech was intended to be called Military-Industrial Complex (a replacement for "Economies of War" which didn't really work as a name). Was this too long to fit?
 
AH40. Maybe spice should be unable to spawn on polar desert waste? Since it gives water yield. Similarly, make sandworms unable to enter (too much moisture).
FIXED locally. Good suggestion.
AH46. Weather scanner seems to be only buildable in some cities, not others? It *seems* like it is only buildable in coastal cities?
The freshwater lake is an interesting problem, but not related. Changing the building iMinAreaSize flag from 10 to -1 solves the problem. I guess if iMinAreaSize has some positive value, then it also checks if the city is on the coast. We should global search and replace to make sure all buildings have -1 for this.
AH50. You can't convert to any of the (placeholder) religions. Intended?
Not intended. I can reproduce this; after a religion spreads to my city, I can see it is there in the religion screen. I move the mouse over the religion button, which I would click in order to convert to it. But the help text at the bottom says I cannot convert. Can anybody think why this might be?
AH53. The Tleilaxu plague is really annoying. I think either the probability of infection should be toned down, and/or there should be a % chance of recovery each turn.
FIXED locally. Reduced the transmission percentage from 100% to 25%. It will still eventually spread to everybody, but slower. Is this enough? We want the unique abilities to have a strong effect; this finding may indicate that the other unique abilities are too weak.
AH55. Homeland improvement is working well, nice job. Ixian walker units does't seem to get it though, though the cymek does.
In my test game, all the walker units get homeground. It is based on unitcombat; the ixian units have either shocktrooper or guardian unitcombat, so they all get it. Can you send a savegame where there are ixian units on their home ground without the promotion? The promotion is only added at the start of the turn.
AH56d. Some units are awarded promotions using python when built. (Sandrider). These need to be awarded on purchased units.
FIXED locally. Note I split this off from the promotions you get from traits, which I cannot see any easy way to fix.
AH62. There is considerable confusion due to shock trooper being both a specific unit as well as a unit class. Recommend we merge the shock trooper class into the melee class and a few into guardsman class, this will reduce a lot of the confusion.
The intention was to have three unitcombats: early gun infantry, melee infantry, and late gun infantry. Only melee infantry can ignore city walls. I would rather keep the number of units with this ability small. Maybe we need different names to make this more clear. Maybe two is enough, gun and melee. I agree quads should go into the scorpion class; we could certainly rename it. But I wanted walkers to be almost like UU of their related infantry units, including to be in the same unitcombat.
AH63. The AI has a habit of building forts and outposts on bonus resources, when what it really should do is build them *adjacent* to bonus resources and then build them. Alternatively, change the fort/outpost so that it grants the resource (so its the same as building the appropriate improvement on it, but instead of tile yield it gives defensive bonus and culture). Also, what is the difference between the outpost and fort? Do we really need both?
The outpost and perimeter are actually identical in the XML; so there is no effective reason for both. Maybe keldath intended them to be different at one point, but I guess we could eliminate one. One interesting point is that these improvements act as a city -- including automatically connecting any bonus they are built upon. I tried that with a specific WB experiment, and it is working. So it does give you the bonus without the tile yield, just as you suggested.
AH64. Military complex tech was intended to be called Military-Industrial Complex (a replacement for Economies of War which didn't really work as a name). Was this too long to fit?
Yes.
AH65. Marble contract resource seems to be bugged: I think you can keep building multiple landing stages with the contract. Leto II has 15 marble resources.
I can think of several possible solutions. We could make a national limit of 2 landing stages. We could make the stage simply do nothing, if you already have all the resources listed. We could add a bunch more resources so there is always something to pick. What are your thoughts?
 
@ keldath, and anybody else interested in fixing bugs:

I am not going to be making any xml changes for the next week or so. I have added "FIXED locally" for several items which were python changes. Please go ahead and make any of the changes suggested by the playtesters. In your change log, please do note which changes you have made. I have turned the notes into a spreadsheet so I can track them, and I will try to keep it up to date. The sheet also has a classification column so that all the unit related items can be sorted together. In case it is helpful, you can see it in the attachment.
 
The freshwater lake is an interesting problem, but not related.

Weird conincidence then; my only 2 non-coastal cities cappened to be on a freshwater lake.
Landing stage, space port, weather scanner all had this issue.

This also of course suggests a possible solution for coastal transports....
Have the transports require a cheap 'desert yard' building in order to be constructed, and then set the iMinAreaSize = 10 for that building.
So we could have sandworm transport units that can't travel on land, and can only be built on coastal cities!

Reduced the transmission percentage from 100% to 25%. It will still eventually spread to everybody, but slower. Is this enough?

I don't know, we can test, but I still think it feels bizarre when my ixan meks or scorptions or thopters get plagued, or when I get my entire stack plagued when an aircraft in that stack bombs the ixians. Would be great if it could be limited to infantry types only.

In my test game, all the walker units get homeground.
My mistake, I'd forgotten that the walkers only had base movement 1, so I thought my 2 move walkers weren't getting it.

The intention was to have three unitcombats: early gun infantry, melee infantry, and late gun infantry. Only melee infantry can ignore city walls. I would rather keep the number of units with this ability small. Maybe we need different names to make this more clear. Maybe two is enough, gun and melee. I agree quads should go into the scorpion class; we could certainly rename it. But I wanted walkers to be almost like UU of their related infantry units, including to be in the same unitcombat.

My impression was that walls (at least those of the citadel) were actually shields surrounding the city, protecting it from ranged assault. So vehicles, aircraft, ranged weapons aren't very effective against defenders, hence their large defensive bonus and the small reduction from siege units. But the shield has no impact on melee guys, who just walk through it and then butcher the defenders.
Also arguably lasgun troops should ignore shields, because of the feedback nuke effect that woudl happen if you tried to use your shields against lasgun attackers.

What is the purpose between early-gun and late-gun? I think its much easier to merge these. Shock troopers were definitely intended to be melee troops (hence why they come with personal shields tech), its meant to go bladesmen, elite bladesmen, shock troops.

I think the number of units that ignore city walls can potentially be large; most units in the Dune universe are melee, because of how shields stop ranged weapons, and siege warfare is not an important thing in the dune universe.

The reason I think that Walkers should go into the scorpion class is so that anti-tank weapons are more effective against them. If I'm fighting a robotic walker, I would much rather have a missile launcher than a sword or maula pistol.
I'm fine with the walkers basically being UUs of various infantry units, but I still think they should change unit class. Why do you think they need to be guardsmen class?
So it does give you the bonus without the tile yield, just as you suggested.

Ok, this is probably fine then, lets just eliminate one of them.

What are your thoughts?

Hmm. I do worry that with the current system it is too easy for the first to get to offworld trade to monopolize all the good resources.
How about a combination?
a) Limit Landing stage to a national limit of 4. (And remove landing stage as a building requirement for other buildings if any).
b) Have three classes of resources: URUs, Major import resources, minor import resources.
Have each civ that is eligible for a URU (Corrino and Ix atm) automatically get that as their first resource. (Otherwise the AI might screw up and not get it if it picks 4 other resources, and the human player can strategically delay the resource to their 4th pick getting others first, knowing no-one else can take their one.)
Have the major import resources like the +2 luxury goods are now. These provide 3 copies and only 1 contract is allowed for the world.
Have the minor resources give +1 bonuses, provide 2 copies, and have 2 contracts allowed for the world. Marble would be a minor resource.
Have the AI make sure that they know that major resources are better than minor. Just hardcode the AI a preference order for its picks.

Then, once all the contracts are taken, then any additional landing stages do not give any further contracts.

So, there is still a nice bonus for the early researchers of offworld trade; you can get a bunch of the best resources, but its harder to lock out later people from still getting somethnig useful, and we don't get the craziness of 15 marble resources.

Caladanian wine could be a +1 happy minor resource. Pundi rice could be a +2 health major resource. Elacca could be a +1 happy resource. Fogwood could be a happy resource. Whale fur could be a minor happiness resource. etc.
 
I like Ahriman's ideas for limiting the number of landing stages and expanding the list of imported goods. We should also be more imaginative with the effects of offworld goods - health and happy bonuses only are a bit dull. Having them be building requirements and having amplifying buildings for some of them might be a start.

Not sure Elacca is the best for +1 happy. The main use in the book is to destroy the will of slaves in gladiatorial combat. I suggested a possible strategic use here. Now Ecaz are back in we should think about giving them some distinct trade advantages - better URs or buildings that amplify bonuses from imported goods maybe.
 
I like the idea of linking the resources to buildings better.
The major resources could be +1, with a further +1 from some building. Minor resources just +1 from some building.
 
hey guys!

i lost track of all the feedback here....


anyway! superb news!!!!!!

plz go to - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=332254

is that gonna solve us some problems ?....................................................


im gonna insert this inside the sdk and merge this in,
finally we will have a proper carryall land and sea!!!
 
The concept of land transport is interesting. If we get this, would we rearrange the mapscript to go to an all-land model again? We should carefully evaluate whether the land transport changes work well.
 
keldath,

well for the looks of it, the modder knew what he was doing,

im sure that we can benefit from this a lot.

think about it - we can compensate for the lack of roads with making land transports that can move a greater num of moves,
we can have carryalls to carry units everywhere much better.



im also gonna insert the new car mod - which ads 15& of game speed to bts.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13059

after this, im gonna do the unit tree all over again.
hopefully ill have new files by Saturday, im gonna make use of all the feed here.
 
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