fyi, I am compiling my own list. Keep up the suggestions.
Dynamic Civilization Naming - Submit Names Here!
- Thread starter Kweeky
- Start date
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
Because the Ptolemys were very 'Egyptized' and they didn't rule as Greek conquerors, but pharoahs only Egypt only. I used the same idea for a lot of other civs.
The problem is they're aren't any names of states remaining, and they were probably only city-states any way.
Well, Persia is a western word, not used by the Persians themselves. And I actually think Persia is one of the civs that benefits most from this mod since its history is characterised by the rise of new dynasties which conquer an empire and then decline, roughly coinciding with civ's ages too. 'Iranian' is just a typo.
I actually meant that the Papal States were centred around Rome, and since Rome is inevitable the Roman civs capital, it makes sense to look for civ names around that area rather than elsewhere.
I suppose Rhye will decide either way, but personally I think we should avoid using terms like "Italian States". It just doesn't seem right that the player would be in control of an entity that historically wasn't unified. Still, I did put HRE. Maybe you're right.
mitsho
Deity
I must correct you on the HRE. This was one state. It had an Emperor. It was not very "centralized", or ultra-federal 
but it was a single state... HRE (or HREGN - Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation) as name for Germany makes much sense.
m
but it was a single state... HRE (or HREGN - Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation) as name for Germany makes much sense. m
onedreamer
Dragon
Úmarth;5918162 said:
Well I wouldn't really make a point out of this, since it applies to many other civs, Egypt is ok but Persia is not ? Not really consistent. I think city names in original languages are interesting (because the name of a city is only a marginal information), but if we were to keep original Civ names too, it would start to get confusing.
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
I think you must realise that using the terms republic, people's republic, kingdom and so one in modern and industrial and modern ages should be limited.
People's republic can only be used with state property, others can be republic or a form of monarchy.
Many states now have a monarchy but still have univ. suff. (example : Spain)
If you use naming based on civics, it's gonna be hard work, and a lot of checks during the game (lowing the game down).
If you base the name on the age, stuff like people's republic and republic shoun't be used to much (better even not) in modern and industrial ages
People's republic can only be used with state property, others can be republic or a form of monarchy.
Many states now have a monarchy but still have univ. suff. (example : Spain)
If you use naming based on civics, it's gonna be hard work, and a lot of checks during the game (lowing the game down).
If you base the name on the age, stuff like people's republic and republic shoun't be used to much (better even not) in modern and industrial ages
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
That's true but I was just reasoning that there really isn't much need to use the name Persia because it was never historically used. On the other hand, Egypt is the official name of the current Republic of Egypt.
That's very limiting though, the vast majority of countries officially have Republic in their name. The thing is, if you say you shouldn't use Republic and People's Republic, should you also use Kingdom and Empire? And before you know it we're right back to the start.
And besides, just because a country calls itself a People's Republic that doesn't mean its communist, like modern China. And just because a country calls itself a Republic it doesn't mean its democratic. IMO the point of this feature is that it just adds a bit of immersion and realism to the game, and in that case long-winded names like the "Islamic Republic of Iran" are a boon because that's the kind of name states like to give themselves.
I think it would be best if instead of republic or monarchy it will be only empire.
Ancient: (Pre-Birth)
Classical: Sassanid Empire
Medieval: Timurid Empire
Renaissance: Safavid Empire
Industrial: Qajarian Empire
Modern: Iranian Empire
Ancient: (Pre-Birth)
Classical: Sassanid Empire
Medieval: Timurid Empire
Renaissance: Safavid Empire
Industrial: Qajarian Empire
Modern: Iranian Empire
Ok this is what I think: The Nations would always be Greek, Persian, British, until they get destroyed... And they have different titles depending on Civics(which in turn is dependent on tech) like Empires, Nations... maybe... Im sure other people will have better ideas... I dont think religions should have any effect in the matter...
Gaius Octavius
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
- Messages
- 4,016
America ought to have some kind of representation for its colonial age... New England would work.
pokeravi
Warlord
American Empire
Ancient: Pre-Birth
Classical: Pre-Birth
Medieval: Pre-Birth
Renaissance: United States of America
Industrial: United States of America
Modern: United States of America
Roman Empire
Ancient: Roman Kingdom
Classical: Roman Empire
Medieval: Papal States
Renaissance: Papal States
Industrial: Kingdom of Italy
Modern: Italy
English Empire
Ancient: Celtic Britain
Classical: Anglo-Saxon England
Medieval: Kingdom of England
Renaissance: Kingdom of Great Britain
Industrial: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
Modern: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
German Empire
Ancient: Goths
Classical: Visigoths
Medieval: Holy Roman Empire
Renaissance: Kingdom of Prussia
Industrial: German Empire
Modern: Germany
Ancient: Pre-Birth
Classical: Pre-Birth
Medieval: Pre-Birth
Renaissance: United States of America
Industrial: United States of America
Modern: United States of America
Roman Empire
Ancient: Roman Kingdom
Classical: Roman Empire
Medieval: Papal States
Renaissance: Papal States
Industrial: Kingdom of Italy
Modern: Italy
English Empire
Ancient: Celtic Britain
Classical: Anglo-Saxon England
Medieval: Kingdom of England
Renaissance: Kingdom of Great Britain
Industrial: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
Modern: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
German Empire
Ancient: Goths
Classical: Visigoths
Medieval: Holy Roman Empire
Renaissance: Kingdom of Prussia
Industrial: German Empire
Modern: Germany
For much of its existance it was united in name only. Sure there was an emperor, but he rarely had actual control of much of the empire. Granted it was more united than the "Italian States" or ancient "Greece" or "Germanic Tribes". At the very least the names should represent something with a nominal central authority (i.e. HRE).
Rhye, if you do this (which you appear to be at least considering), what would you use for criteria? Civics, times, rebirth, something else, or a combination?
It may help with ideas and cut some pointless debate.
One thing I thought was to do it like the city names. Use historical references to link names to certain civics and/or religions (like historical city names are tied to tiles), but when there isn't anthing good, have a list of names that you can randomly change to one of after a period of anarchy (though there is only a chance for teh name to change, it can stay the same), or for India, just civic changes (like when founding cities outside of the historical area). The idea of names just changing when you research a tech seems really weird.
I don't know what this would be like to code, but just throwing out an idea that seems realistic (there is always a reason for the change), historical (where there is a decent name) and not overly complicated.
BTW re-spawning civs would start with a random name, but, if possible, always different than before.
I do like this idea but I think it should be limited in use.
I dont like suggestions like this
Ancient: (Pre-Birth)
Classical: Sassanid Empire
Medieval: Timurid Empire
Renaissance: Safavid Empire
Industrial: Qajarian Empire
Modern: Iranian Empire
Persia should be used for most of the ancient to renaissance period before a change to iran.
Likewise Rome should just be Rome and Italy not Papal states and such like.
If these names can be linked to events / civics / timeline so much the better.
I dont like suggestions like this
Ancient: (Pre-Birth)
Classical: Sassanid Empire
Medieval: Timurid Empire
Renaissance: Safavid Empire
Industrial: Qajarian Empire
Modern: Iranian Empire
Persia should be used for most of the ancient to renaissance period before a change to iran.
Likewise Rome should just be Rome and Italy not Papal states and such like.
If these names can be linked to events / civics / timeline so much the better.
I meant to show that instead of republic, kingdom or chaliphate it should be just empire, I took the persian idea from another post.
I'll tell you when I've taken my final decision and made it work
onedreamer
Dragon
Úmarth;5918935 said:
I will object again that this is not correct, I'll try to explain better. Egypt is not called as such in Egypt, it is "Misr". Persia has been historically used as the name to define Iran from european peoples for millinnia, in fact the name derives from ancient greek. Isn't that historical enough ? If you don't want Persia to be called Persia, then the same would apply to Egypt and a tons other Civs. Civs in the mod are defined (ie named) following european culture currently, and I think it really should stay this way.
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
Well, fine. It doesn't make any difference since the only none-dynastic name I suggested for Persia is for the modern era which is just like all my other modern era suggestions, it's the official English name of what we would know as Persia (minus the 'Islamic'). Just like the Arab Republic of Egypt is Egypt's official English name.
It would be very weird if a civ suddenly changed its name to "viceroyalty" without any foreign invasion, changed it's name to "republic" while remaining a monarchy, or changed its name to "sultanate" without converting to Islam, or at least being conquered by a Muslim nation. In fact, incorrectly applied dynamic naming would be far worse than current static naming. So I'd suggest using only the changes tied to in-game events that trigger them.
A simple example would be changing name between "republic" and "kingdom/empire", when corresponding civic switches happen. In some cases you could be more elaborate. For Russia, you could call it Rus' under Despotism, Russian Empire under Monarchy or Representation (assuming ahistoric case of 19th century-style constitutional monarchy), USSR under Police State, and Russian Federation under Universal Suffrage.
Some changes based on the difference between ancient and modern names could still happen based on timing or era changes (e.g. Vikings -> Scandinavia), but those shouldn't be confused with changes due to government change (Russia -> USSR), or territorial aquisition (England -> United Kingdom).
PS You could also dynamically change between "kingdom" and "empire" when the country expands beyond its home region. (Conqering neighbors, establishing overseas colonies, Russia expanding to Siberia, etc.)
PPS Somebody suggested earlier in the thread "Tsardom of Russia (Peter)". That was funny to read, because Peter was the first Russian emperor. This is one of the examples why it's better to stick with generic western names, instead of doing a poor attempt at dynamic naming. ("Russian Empire" is a generic term, which makes no specific implications. However, "Tzardom of Russia" implies that it was ruled by a tzar like Ivan IV (the Terrible). So if you change the country and leader names dynamically, when you change the country name to "Tzardom" players will expect leader name to change to a tzar, rather than an emperor.)
A simple example would be changing name between "republic" and "kingdom/empire", when corresponding civic switches happen. In some cases you could be more elaborate. For Russia, you could call it Rus' under Despotism, Russian Empire under Monarchy or Representation (assuming ahistoric case of 19th century-style constitutional monarchy), USSR under Police State, and Russian Federation under Universal Suffrage.
Some changes based on the difference between ancient and modern names could still happen based on timing or era changes (e.g. Vikings -> Scandinavia), but those shouldn't be confused with changes due to government change (Russia -> USSR), or territorial aquisition (England -> United Kingdom).
PS You could also dynamically change between "kingdom" and "empire" when the country expands beyond its home region. (Conqering neighbors, establishing overseas colonies, Russia expanding to Siberia, etc.)
PPS Somebody suggested earlier in the thread "Tsardom of Russia (Peter)". That was funny to read, because Peter was the first Russian emperor. This is one of the examples why it's better to stick with generic western names, instead of doing a poor attempt at dynamic naming. ("Russian Empire" is a generic term, which makes no specific implications. However, "Tzardom of Russia" implies that it was ruled by a tzar like Ivan IV (the Terrible). So if you change the country and leader names dynamically, when you change the country name to "Tzardom" players will expect leader name to change to a tzar, rather than an emperor.)
Wilhelm II
Warlord
I completetly agree Zeviz. Still I think there are examples like the middle ages when you can expect every nation to be ruled by a monarch or despot. And few industrialized or industrializing nations refer to themselfes as "holy empires", which should set the expiration date of the HRE for example to the start of the industrial age - even if no Napoleon forces the Emperor to abdict...
My two cents on the naming of Germany btw:
Given that the HRE(GN) technically lasted until 1806 and Austria/the House of Habsburg was the German powerhouse during most of the renaissance period (which starts semewhere in the 15th century) and Austro-Prussian dualism was important for and virulent only in the 18th/19th century, I can't see why Germany should be called Prussia in this period. Sure Frederick was a prominent German ruler, but his sphere and range of influence in Germany was much more limited than that of Maria Theresia or Joseph II.
The Second Empire/Reich was founded in 1870/71. At that time the term "Reich" was not intended primarily to imply Germany's status of a great power (or aspiration thereof) but as a reference to the good old days (HRE(GN) which was heavily romanticiced in those days) and to the fact that the Head of State was a monarch. "Reich" can be a synonym to both "empire" and "realm".
IMHO the "short title" "Germany" is appropriate for all ages MA-modern.
For the "long title" HRE(GN) is fitting for both MA and Renaissance. At least if Germany is christian. A buddhist or hindu Holy Roman Empire may look weird.
How you want to call Germany in the industrial and modern era depends a bit on your taste and kind of play. Between the demise of the old empire and the rise of the new one there was the German Confederation (1815-66). If the revolutionaries of 1848 had succesfully managed to erect a (more or less) democratic unified nation, would they have called this nation "German Empire"? Maybe or even probably, who knows. Given that the term Reich as an official title for Germany survived the rule of the last Kaiser/Emperor Wilhelm II by 27 years
and himself by 4 years 
, and there were people hoping to erect a democratic Forth Reich (people like Thomas Mann during the war and some politicians of all parties in 1989/90, before they seemingly all decided to leave terms like "Reich", the flags of the 2nd Reich, etc to the Neo-Nazis or other far right-wing organizations 
) it's not that far-fetched to say that German Empire/Reich is still possible in the modern era under certain circumstances. E.g. a resurrecting or communist Germany should not necessarily be called Empire.
To cut a long story short: HRE(GN) is more historical if you want to represent all of Germany in the Renaissance period than Prussia which was only e pluribus unum (one out of many German states), and how you want to call Germany in the Ind/Mod eras depends on your personal taste, the game situation and a bit less on civics. And anyone could/should be able to edit the name anyway to his favourite like "the gray team".
My two cents on the naming of Germany btw:
Given that the HRE(GN) technically lasted until 1806 and Austria/the House of Habsburg was the German powerhouse during most of the renaissance period (which starts semewhere in the 15th century) and Austro-Prussian dualism was important for and virulent only in the 18th/19th century, I can't see why Germany should be called Prussia in this period. Sure Frederick was a prominent German ruler, but his sphere and range of influence in Germany was much more limited than that of Maria Theresia or Joseph II.
The Second Empire/Reich was founded in 1870/71. At that time the term "Reich" was not intended primarily to imply Germany's status of a great power (or aspiration thereof) but as a reference to the good old days (HRE(GN) which was heavily romanticiced in those days) and to the fact that the Head of State was a monarch. "Reich" can be a synonym to both "empire" and "realm".
IMHO the "short title" "Germany" is appropriate for all ages MA-modern.
For the "long title" HRE(GN) is fitting for both MA and Renaissance. At least if Germany is christian. A buddhist or hindu Holy Roman Empire may look weird.
How you want to call Germany in the industrial and modern era depends a bit on your taste and kind of play. Between the demise of the old empire and the rise of the new one there was the German Confederation (1815-66). If the revolutionaries of 1848 had succesfully managed to erect a (more or less) democratic unified nation, would they have called this nation "German Empire"? Maybe or even probably, who knows. Given that the term Reich as an official title for Germany survived the rule of the last Kaiser/Emperor Wilhelm II by 27 years
and himself by 4 years , and there were people hoping to erect a democratic Forth Reich (people like Thomas Mann during the war and some politicians of all parties in 1989/90, before they seemingly all decided to leave terms like "Reich", the flags of the 2nd Reich, etc to the Neo-Nazis or other far right-wing organizations ) it's not that far-fetched to say that German Empire/Reich is still possible in the modern era under certain circumstances. E.g. a resurrecting or communist Germany should not necessarily be called Empire. To cut a long story short: HRE(GN) is more historical if you want to represent all of Germany in the Renaissance period than Prussia which was only e pluribus unum (one out of many German states), and how you want to call Germany in the Ind/Mod eras depends on your personal taste, the game situation and a bit less on civics. And anyone could/should be able to edit the name anyway to his favourite like "the gray team".
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
Peter was the first Emperor, so logically he had to have been the last Tsar. Catherine reigned after Peter so she's the one I suggested be associated with the Industrial era and the 'Russian Empire'. On the other hand, Tsar, derived from Caesar, historically meant Emperor anyway.
That said, I agree with all your other ideas, it does seem like a much less rigid way of doing it. It could also be linked to religion, that way you could end up with the "Sultanate of Great Britain".
