E-books becoming more accepted as a form

[innonimatu]

E-books as a technology are useful and have a place. E-books as a commercial form are dangerous, for the same reasons proprietary software is, especially as there seems to be no stop to the greed of copyright holders.

btw, what's your opinion of present copyright rules, Kyriakos?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Seeing how you can get literature very inexpensively via e-book format and out-of-print books will become more accessible, I think e-books are a positive, though I still prefer hardbacks to put on my library shelf.

I think it also provides a publisher incentive (I'm not sure I spelled that right) to keep a book thats not selling very much in print. It costs money to print each book the paper and ink and shipping costs and stuff. But, with the size of hard drives these days, it would only cost pennies (probably even less) to keep it available on a server for sale as an eBook.

 

[Kyriakos]

E-books as a technology are useful and have a place. E-books as a commercial form are dangerous, for the same reasons proprietary software is, especially as there seems to be no stop to the greed of copyright holders.

btw, what's your opinion of present copyright rules, Kyriakos?

I am not very familiar with this, but i always secure my rights before i send any work out.
That said only a small part of my published work has been in electronic media, or at least a small part of work i actually still consider to be worth something.

Copyright, ideally, should protect the writer when he is still relatively unknown. For if he becomes known then it is a lot less likely that someone will try to steal his work and present it as his own.

 

[Antilogic]

On average, the books I buy off Amazon cost $1 to $3 more if purchased electronically vs. the discounted paperback. Why would I pay an extra $100 for a Kindle for the privilege of paying more per book? And some of the stuff isn't even available on the Kindle. As far as I know, you have to repurchase your library if you switch from the Kindle to some other ebook provider as well... that's not happening on my end.

Make it worth my while to purchase e-books and maybe I'll consider it.

 

[Lillefix]

Well, neither can you a book, unless you have very steady hands and are sure the book won't slip out of your hands and into the water.

I actually tried that once. Never again.

 

[wolfigor]

On average, the books I buy off Amazon cost $1 to $3 more if purchased electronically vs. the discounted paperback. Why would I pay an extra $100 for a Kindle for the privilege of paying more per book? And some of the stuff isn't even available on the Kindle. As far as I know, you have to repurchase your library if you switch from the Kindle to some other ebook provider as well... that's not happening on my end.

Make it worth my while to purchase e-books and maybe I'll consider it.

You are comparing discount price (for paper-book) vs full price (of eBook), not a fair comparison.
In Amazon you have plenty of discounts for the Kindle books too, and if you don't search bestsellers you can buy books for almost nothing.
Additionally you can read a certain % of the book before actually buying it.


I was always a book lover, and I was thinking like you about eBooks until I started looking into the details.
Now I have moved to eBooks and there is no way back (I even gifted two kindles to friends!).

I also routinely share with my friends annotations on the books I read (very easy to do on Kindle) and I can bring my full library with myself.


In terms of devices for eBooks I did try Kindle (3rd gen), iPad (1 & 2), Sony eBook reader, Galaxy Tab, and Galaxy S2.
In my experience the Kindle wins over all competitors for reading and handling books.

E-books as a technology are useful and have a place. E-books as a commercial form are dangerous, for the same reasons proprietary software is, especially as there seems to be no stop to the greed of copyright holders.

Effectively you are touching a very sore spot.
With DRM it may become possible to "protect" even quotations from other books.
If copyright holders (the corporations, not the writers) get what they want they may make very difficoult to legally and freely use parts of somebody else work, even if legal according to fair use.

I actually tried that once. Never again.

I routinely do it with both paper books and eBooks.
So far I killed only a couple of paperbacks.
It's a kind of russian roulette.

 

[Silurian]

I'm pretty anxious when I read books in the bath. Always have to be careful not to drop it and to keep my hands dry.
A waterproof e-book would be the only reason for me to actually get an e-book.

Well, neither can you a book, unless you have very steady hands and are sure the book won't slip out of your hands and into the water.

Well I only do it with cheap paper backs.

I have never dropped one but have got wet finger prints sometimes.

It is a lot harder to read in the shower but I have managed to do it.

With a waterproof e-book I could take a more expensive book into the bath or shower.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Well, as I've probably mentioned on CFC before, I don't have steady hands.

 

[Antilogic]

You are comparing discount price (for paper-book) vs full price (of eBook), not a fair comparison.
In Amazon you have plenty of discounts for the Kindle books too, and if you don't search bestsellers you can buy books for almost nothing.
Additionally you can read a certain % of the book before actually buying it.


I was always a book lover, and I was thinking like you about eBooks until I started looking into the details.
Now I have moved to eBooks and there is no way back (I even gifted two kindles to friends!).

I also routinely share with my friends annotations on the books I read (very easy to do on Kindle) and I can bring my full library with myself.


In terms of devices for eBooks I did try Kindle (3rd gen), iPad (1 & 2), Sony eBook reader, Galaxy Tab, and Galaxy S2.
In my experience the Kindle wins over all competitors for reading and handling books.

It's a perfectly fair comparison. I have to pay a price to get a book that I want to read (and own since libraries still exist). If I can buy a paperback for cheaper than I can buy the ebook version, why the hell would I shell out money for an ebook reader, and then buy the more expensive ebook version? This is something I have been paying close attention to for the last year of purchases off Amazon--an ebook reader is an investment, and not one that pays itself off.

I'm not a pop reader and I don't usually buy off the best-sellers list (sparing the Pulitzer Prize winners in history, they make it on to the BS list). I read tons of history, which usually doesn't get a mark-down on the Kindle prices, and occasionally I come across books that are only offered hardcover or paperback, no Kindle version. So I couldn't even read everything I wanted to read.

Question for you, since you have had multiple readers. Do you have to rebuy the same books you already bought on a new reader? Do you actually get the copy of the book, or just the rights to view a copy of the book using a particular piece of technology?

 

[Till]

I really enjoy reading ebooks on my phone when i'm on the road. I also really enjoy reading conventional books when i'm at home. Don't see either replacing the other, but i do enjoy reading about people getting all anxious about it.

 

[7ronin]

The major appeal of electronic books to me is that they save space. Unfortunately, I have two thousand books so I'm never going to be able to convert them. The majority of them are out of print and/or obscure so they are probably not going to show up in digital form anyway. A disadvantage is that if you are doing research, you can't have several books open in front of you.

A bigger problem is media obsolescence and deterioration. Paper books last. The oldest book I own was printed in 1700. Are Kindle books going to last three hundred years? What happens to your Kindle books when a new system is developed as it inevitably will. Have you tried buying an 8mm film projecter recently or a Betamax machine or an 8 track tape player? What is the life of a Kindle book? How long will it take for the data to become corrupted?

 

[Kozmos]

The major appeal of electronic books to me is that they save space. Unfortunately, I have two thousand books so I'm never going to be able to convert them. The majority of them are out of print and/or obscure so they are probably not going to show up in digital form anyway. A disadvantage is that if you are doing research, you can't have several books open in front of you.

A bigger problem is media obsolescence and deterioration. Paper books last. The oldest book I own was printed in 1700. Are Kindle books going to last three hundred years? What happens to your Kindle books when a new system is developed as it inevitably will. Have you tried buying an 8mm film projecter recently or a Betamax machine or an 8 track tape player? What is the life of a Kindle book? How long will it take for the data to become corrupted?

There is a company or a service that can digitize those books for you. I forgot its name though.

 

[Souron]

You cannot read an e book in the bath.

But they have there uses.

eBooks readers are more expensive than books so it's worth keeping them from harm, but it's hard to imagine an electronic device eBook doing any damage to you even if it falls into the tub with you.

 

[Kozmos]

Are eBooks really more expensive? Comparing the prices from Amazon and my local bookstores they seem a great deal cheaper and there of course books I can't get here without preordering. As well its a whole different story reading on a regular display versus an e-ink one.

 

[Souron]

I meant to say eBook readers. Fixed now.

 

[Antilogic]

Are eBooks really more expensive? Comparing the prices from Amazon and my local bookstores they seem a great deal cheaper and there of course books I can't get here without preordering. As well its a whole different story reading on a regular display versus an e-ink one.

Generally, your brick-and-mortar stores are going to be more expensive--they have more personnel, storefronts, etc. to pay for.

However, compare the posted prices on Amazon for the Kindle version, the hardcover, and the paperback. Generally, the Kindle price is between the analog formats if the paperback book is marked down. I only buy when the paperback price is more than 30% marked off, and this price has been below the Kindle price on all but a few occasions. Other times, the difference is negligible (within a dollar).

 

[Silurian]

eBooks readers are more expensive than books so it's worth keeping them from harm, but it's hard to imagine an electronic device eBook doing any damage to you even if it falls into the tub with you.

I did not consider any harm to myself just the eBook reader. I assume they are 6 or 12V and you need at least 50V to have even a very small risk of injury.

No I do not want to destroy the eBook reader. The steam rising from the bath could get into the eBook and is likely to make it slipery so I could drop it.

 

[wolfigor]

an ebook reader is an investment, and not one that pays itself off.

You have to give a value to the ease of handling, reduced space, portability, etc.

I read tons of history, which usually doesn't get a mark-down on the Kindle prices,

Yes, that's true.
I was trying to make a more general statement... An avid pop reader (that's the main target of companies like Amazon) can find good discounts.

Question for you, since you have had multiple readers. Do you have to rebuy the same books you already bought on a new reader? Do you actually get the copy of the book, or just the rights to view a copy of the book using a particular piece of technology?

Short answer: you get the rights to view a copy of the book using a particular piece of technology.

This is the real sore point of eBook (that applies to all digital media such as movies, music, and games): often DRM does not allow you to migrate your books from one system to any other.

Amazon, for example, offers their reader on many platforms so you can read your Kindle books, for example, on an Android tablet.
But you are still chained to Amazon for your books.

The same, if not worst, apply to all others.

In theory you should be able to read the books you purchased on all readers supporting the same DRM of your books, however this is far from user friendly and not encouraged by the content owners.

One option is buy eBooks from more "liberal" sources (some companies have less restrictive DRM systems) and import those books in the reader you happen to use.

Ideally we should have a common DRM framework that all content owners and distributors must use, so that you can legally read the book you bought on any device you like.
Unfortunately this is not happening anywhere, and the "locked silos" system initiated by Apple is now copied by all... with the consumers as the main losers in the process.

Obviously you can't re-sell second hand eBooks, and you cannot borrow one like you could do with a paper version.


I love the flexibility of reading eBooks but I hate the rigidity of their business model.

 

[Antilogic]

You have to give a value to the ease of handling, reduced space, portability, etc.

Heh, I'm not convinced ebook readers win here, but that's a personal opinion. What happens if you leave your book on the table in a restaurant while you use the restroom? Your Kindle is a bigger target for thieves than an ordinary book. And if you lose it, you lose all your books, instead of just one. Unless after you buy a new Kindle, Amazon lets you re-download the books you have already purchased--does anyone know if they do that?

Yes, that's true.
I was trying to make a more general statement... An avid pop reader (that's the main target of companies like Amazon) can find good discounts.

Fair enough, I'm trying to point out that the price point is not there yet for several of the less popular genres. Fiction is more likely to pay off, I think, but that's based on a small sampling that I have looked at. I know some authors, usually the pro-technology crowd, are only releasing ebook versions of their works, so the argument does go both ways. But the stuff I want to read still leans analog.

Short answer: you get the rights to view a copy of the book using a particular piece of technology.

This is the real sore point of eBook (that applies to all digital media such as movies, music, and games): often DRM does not allow you to migrate your books from one system to any other.

Amazon, for example, offers their reader on many platforms so you can read your Kindle books, for example, on an Android tablet.
But you are still chained to Amazon for your books.

The same, if not worst, apply to all others.

In theory you should be able to read the books you purchased on all readers supporting the same DRM of your books, however this is far from user friendly and not encouraged by the content owners.

One option is buy eBooks from more "liberal" sources (some companies have less restrictive DRM systems) and import those books in the reader you happen to use.

Ideally we should have a common DRM framework that all content owners and distributors must use, so that you can legally read the book you bought on any device you like.
Unfortunately this is not happening anywhere, and the "locked silos" system initiated by Apple is now copied by all... with the consumers as the main losers in the process.

Obviously you can't re-sell second hand eBooks, and you cannot borrow one like you could do with a paper version.


I love the flexibility of reading eBooks but I hate the rigidity of their business model.

That proprietary business model is probably the most convincing argument for me not buying an ebook reader. I don't like getting roped into one supplier for books--even though my last purchases are from Amazon, I can dump them whenever I want if a better deal shows up.

So, do you keep your old ebook readers to read the books you purchased on them? Or have you transferred them to a hard drive or some other long-term storage option? Did you rebuy the ones you were likely to read again on your Kindle? (I'm just curious as to how you handled the DRM, not looking to fight here.)

 

[Boundless]

I really dislike e-books, I love the romance of a book and its pages, but the one positive from them is apparently it's increased the number of ACTUAL books being sold, so tit for tat.