If a player capture an enemy settler it turns into a worker, if an AI catches a enemy settler it stays a settler.
I think that if he was a settler previously owned by you can be recovered, if he was property of another civ changes to a worker.
If a player capture an enemy settler it turns into a worker, if an AI catches a enemy settler it stays a settler.
I think that if he was a settler previously owned by you can be recovered, if he was property of another civ changes to a worker.
I actually meant remove the AI's ability to do this, not give it to players. Stealing settlers is WAY too easy.I'm with @Funak on this one.
I like to play the early game as an isolationist, ie. stay away from my lands while I figure out the best places for my future cities.
This means I will often start wars at the first signs of enemy incursion into my realm and attack settlers, whether protected or not. Now, if I could attack a settler and get to found a city with that settler, that would be fantastic. Like stealing workings but sooo much better.
If a player capture an enemy settler it turns into a worker, if an AI catches a enemy settler it stays a settler.
No it doesn't. Only if the barbs capture a settler and then a civ recaptures THEIR settler does it stay a settler. This is true for AI and players.
Try it out, I know for a fact that if a barb captures my settler and an AI captures that barb settler they get to keep it as a settler.
Unless those 20+ times this has happened over the years have all been bugs.
Weird, I never knew this either. I always assumed non-barb capture of settler became a worker. Unless it was your own from the start.
Try it out, I know for a fact that if a barb captures my settler and an AI captures that barb settler they get to keep it as a settler.
Unless those 20+ times this has happened over the years have all been bugs.
How often do you watch AI civs capture barb-controlled settlers? As I said I've seen it just over 20 times in over 6k hours played. I can think of a few other ways it could have happened, but this seems like the most logical case.
I'm also sure I've captured an AI settler getting the message 'this unit belongs to civ X, do you want to return it to them'.
When the AI captures my settler it becomes a worker. This should be easy enough to test; just build a settler and declare war on the AI, then move it into their territory with an adjacent unit to witness the capture.
To be fair, when I say they "recapture their settler" from the barbs, I only witness them getting it back so I'm not 100% they lost it, though the number of settled cities and the capture location tends to imply it was theirs to start.
Yeah taking settlers directly from you might result in a worker, someone would probably have commented on it if it didn't but the barb-thing I'm still pretty convinced of.
Yeah taking settlers directly from you might result in a worker, someone would probably have commented on it if it didn't but the barb-thing I'm still pretty convinced of.
I can confirm this, as it happened to me at least once in the past. My Settler was taken by a barbarian, then it was subsequently taken by a foreign civ who defeated the barbarian. It remained a Settler throughout.
Now anyway, we've gotten a bit off topic. I'm trying to come up with a suggestion that fixes the early techs dilemma, but it's much harder than it sounds.
I can't come up with an elegant distribution of the luxury resources among the early game techs. They always clutter the techs with icons and it's not pleasant to look at. I'm thinking maybe we can let some luxuries be visible from the start (like Citrus, Salt, Sugar, Copper, etc), while other luxuries are discovered through the ancient and classical techs (like tobacco, whales, . But then I start worrying about unfair starting locations because of the invisible luxuries so I thought maybe we can offset this starting disadvantage by increasing the base yields of resources discovered later. I feel we might have to add a tech (Weaving, Brewing, Carving, or something) that's meant to unlock luxuries en masse. Or Pottery could serve as that tech. In any case, one has to ensure that the tech tree doesn't end up looking cluttered, minimizing the number of hidden icons; that the resources' base-yields, tile improvement-improved yields, and building-improved yields are in accordance with how late they are discovered; that the end result is a tech tree wherein techs belonging to the same column are equally desirable. This task requires utmost meticulousness. Anyone up for it?
That's fine, but then ignoring balance feedback from those people because it's not the default setting seems a bit callous.
However, he is correct for several other points that are unaffected:
1) Settler is crucially important
2) Roads are useless without Settlers
3) Chariot Archers are useless without horses
4) Stonehenge is impossible to build without hammer bonus resources or food bonus resources + hammer tiles
5) Scouts are good
6) Warriors fall in an awkward spot. Expensive enough they aren't usually worth building early, but you'll get either Archery or Bronze Working soon enough and then they're pretty much obsolete
7) Tile improvements are useless without a very expensive worker
There's enough variation in teching that I'm satisfied, but it could certainly be better. Perhaps move the Caravan and trade route unlock to the Wheel from Pottery? And make the Warrior the same price as a Scout?
I mentioned before that these parts of the initial post, despite being non-default settings, still applied to default settings. Can we talk about these points at least?
Unless you're Venice .However, he is correct for several other points that are unaffected:
1) Settler is crucially important
Fair enough, big question is, where would you put the roads?2) Roads are useless without Settlers
Unless you're Egypt.3) Chariot Archers are useless without horses
Yes? Most wonders are hard to build in a crappy city without production...4) Stonehenge is impossible to build without hammer bonus resources or food bonus resources + hammer tiles
Yes?5) Scouts are good
Early game unit balancing is a topic for another thread, but there I agree that they are slightly off, sure.6) Warriors fall in an awkward spot. Expensive enough they aren't usually worth building early, but you'll get either Archery or Bronze Working soon enough and then they're pretty much obsolete
First of all, a worker is really not that expensive, it takes a few turns to build but considering how powerful tileimprovements are I really don't see a problem with that.7) Tile improvements are useless without a very expensive worker
The Wheel unlocks a wonder, that's pretty damn powerful.There's enough variation in teching that I'm satisfied, but it could certainly be better. Perhaps move the Caravan and trade route unlock to the Wheel from Pottery? And make the Warrior the same price as a Scout?
Fine, let's talk.
Unless you're Venice .
Honestly I've done Pottery as my 5th tech quite a few times. Having it right at the start isn't anywhere near as important as you make it sound.
Fair enough, big question is, where would you put the roads?
On the same tech as Settlers? Doesn't that sound really powerful for just one tech?
Available from the start? Why? As you mentioned they are useless without settlers.
On a later tech (pref one with the settler tech as a prereq)? Feels like an unnecessary delay to me.
Unless you're Egypt.
Yes? Most wonders are hard to build in a crappy city without production...
Yes?
Early game unit balancing is a topic for another thread, but there I agree that they are slightly off, sure.
I would not say they are too bad to be used however, I usually build 2 or 3 warriors if I'm in a location where I'm likely to get bashed by barbs.
First of all, a worker is really not that expensive, it takes a few turns to build but considering how powerful tileimprovements are I really don't see a problem with that.
Also, the AI start with several workers, meaning tile-improvements are not useless to them.
The Wheel unlocks a wonder, that's pretty damn powerful.
About the warrior scout situation, I guess that could work, they aren't exactly competing for hammers considering they both fill different roles but the warrior is kinda pricey I guess.
Caravans being located there probably isn't exactly relevant, you're probably not going to be rushing them anyways (at least I don't)Oh yes, sometimes I delay it. I didn't say it was a guaranteed no-brainer. But Pottery provides 3 excellent things (Settler, Granary, Caravans) as well as decent tech opportunities (Calendar and Construction are both very good). I'd say I go Pottery 1st 80% of the time, 2nd 10% of the time, and 10% of the time I purposely delay it while I do other things.
Okay, this I actually disagree with. I'm completely with you that the wheel is rarely a choice for the first tech, but you don't NEED pottery for it. There are plenty of strategies that doesn't rely on early settler-spam, some of them use chariots and some of them uses the Petra.But that isn't what I'm suggesting at all. What I'm saying is that roads are useless without settlers. That's fine, keep them separated. But there needs to be some OTHER reason to research the Wheel, since the roads are useless otherwise. Essentially, Pottery ALREADY is a requirement for the Wheel, since the Wheel doesn't give you anything without settlers!
Actually, most wonders let the AI develop their their production first, as you've stated you can't afford workers meaning you won't have any extra developed terrain when building any of the tier 2 wonders compared to the Stonehenge.Most wonders let you develop production first. Stonehenge is the only wonder on a level 1 tech. You will not have developed any territory whatsoever if you want to get that wonder.
The AI are part of the game so naturally you have to count them. There are also ways to get early workers, either by stealing them, getting a gold-ruin or playing as carthage.The AI has nothing to do with this conversation. This is about interesting choice for the human, not a game balance concern. And the worker is by far the most expensive thing to build in the very early game that we are talking about.
It is still a powerful wonder. It being on the tech changes the value of that tech completely, you can't just disregard it because you never build it.A wonder you cannot build because you have no time to improve your territory before you have to rush to build it. Its not a choice to build Stonehenge. If the stars align (you have a silly high production start) then you build it because you can't go wrong if you win the faith race, and otherwise you don't. Funny that Stonehenge is about the stars aligning!
For whatever my opinion is worth, I agree with Gazebo, here. Focusing on a known quantity is a totally reasonable approach.