Early Wonder Dates on Immortal

[ABCDPuppies]

I realize there is a lot of variability on this depending on what AIs are in the game, but I was wondering what dates people shoot for to get early wonders on Immortal (of course, later wonders and other difficulty levels are also worth discussing, but I thought I'd give it some focus.)

I primarily have in mind the very earliest wonders, at the point of the game where you have very little info about what the AIs are up to in terms of tech and building (or even what AIs are in the game sometimes), and so have to go largely by rules of thumb. So:

- Stonehenge
- The Great Wall
- The Oracle
- The Great Lighthouse
- The Pyramids

and to a lesser extent

- The Temple of Artemis
- The Great Library
- The Parthenon
- The Colossus

I'd also draw a distinction between dates when you would feel safe in getting the wonder -- what you'd aim for if you wanted to be sure you got it -- and dates where you would still give it a shot, reasonably happy to take fail gold if you got beaten.

Additionally, when do you view it as necessary to start getting the specialized techs for the wonder in question? For Oracle: when do you start heading down mysticism -> poly/med -> priesthood? For Great Lighthouse, at what point do you make sure to get Sailing -> Masonry? And so forth.

 

[JammerUno]

I never look at dates. For the early wonders, I simply head there in a beeline, which is usually enough to beat the AI to them. And I usually skip the henge and the GW, since I don't have stone at that point. If I try for the 'mids, I'll have stone, so it's not a bad thing to get beaten to it at that point, with the 1:2 hammer:gold conversion.

When you reach the 2nd tier of wonders at aesth, you have OB, some scouting, and alpha, so at that point you can be quite sure of your failure/success.

The oracle is the only real exception to this, since you won't have alpha yet, but it's to your advantage to get it as late as possible. I tend not to build it when I don't start with either TW, myst, or mining. I get the 1st tier techs I need for improvements, then to priesthood, then pottery, perhaps writing if I feel I have a shot at CoL, but MC is good enough. I'm not the biggest fan of the oracle though, the opportunity cost is quite high and GP are pretty useless as far as I'm concerned, compared to the GE/GS/GM you'lre likely to land from GLH/'mids/early libs. Priesthood is a good tech if you're SPI though, since it opens up the discounted temples.

Judaisme might be an indicator for the oracle, but it won't be very reliable.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

Yeah, I agree that Oracle is the really tricky one: sometimes you get religious nuts who go straight for it (though often after Mono), in which case you have very little chance if you do all of the important worker techs first. That's why I keep an eye on the dates. If I really want to make a play for it I'll generally try to make sure I'm at least working on med/poly by 2300 BC or so, although that's also no guarantee.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I'm going to give you the times on deity, I forget what they are on immortal, probably just slightly later.

Keep in mind that the earlier you put hammers into a wonder the later you can build it because the AI cheats and can tell if someone else is building a wonder, and they will sometimes avoid it if someone else is already working on it.

- Stonehenge - I dunno because lots of civs can work on it immediately. If you're not one of those civs I don't really recommend trying for SH.

- The Great Wall - around 2500 BC is safe 90% of the time.

- The Oracle - around 2300 - 2500 BC is safe 90% of the time, 1700 BC is about 60% chance, later then that is very risky.

- The Great Lighthouse - around 1700 BC is pretty safe IIRC.

- The Pyramids - before 1200 BC is fairly safe. I don't build the pyramids often though.

- The Temple of Artemis - I never build this and it seems to go really fast. I have no idea here sorry.

- The Great Library - 300 - 500 BC is pretty safe. Also you should be able to see who has lit and can judge by that how much time you have.

- The Parthenon - maybe 500 BC, I rarely build this also. You can also see who has aesthetics and therefore when it's likely to be built.

- The Colossus - I almost never build it, but obviously it's around the time someone get's metal casting, which can be surprisingly early sometimes ( earlier then 1000 BC in some cases ).

Additionally, when do you view it as necessary to start getting the specialized techs for the wonder in question? For Oracle: when do you start heading down mysticism -> poly/med -> priesthood? For Great Lighthouse, at what point do you make sure to get Sailing -> Masonry? And so forth.

For the oracle if you want to be safe then you should skip everything until you get to priesthood and then put some hammers into the oracle. Usually this is unrealistic though, so I go straight to priesthood after I finish key techs like AG / mining / BW / maybe pottery. All those techs usually help me build the oracle faster once I do get priesthood.

The great lighthouse I think I usually go ( usually I start with fishing if I'm playing a water start so... ) mining -> BW -> sailing ( start building lighthouse ) -> Masonry ( start building TGLH ) and chop or whip the rest of TGLH

I usually go to BW before I build a wonder to hurry it up via chopping, also slavery and the chance of finding copper are nice side bonuses.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I realize there is a lot of variability on this depending on what AIs are in the game, but I was wondering what dates people shoot for to get early wonders on Immortal (of course, later wonders and other difficulty levels are also worth discussing, but I thought I'd give it some focus.)

I primarily have in mind the very earliest wonders, at the point of the game where you have very little info about what the AIs are up to in terms of tech and building (or even what AIs are in the game sometimes), and so have to go largely by rules of thumb. So:

- Stonehenge 2500BC to 1500 BC (try to get by 2400-2300BC)
- The Great Wall 2500 BC to 1500 BC (try to get by 2200 BC
- The Oracle 2100 BC to 800BC (try ~1800BC)
- The Great Lighthouse 1800BC to 200AD (try to get by 1200BC)
- The Pyramids (1800BC to 200AD (try to get by 1000BC)

and to a lesser extent

- The Temple of Artemis 1500BC to 500 BC or later (try 1000 BC)
- The Great Library (800 BC to 500 AD (Try 1AD)
- The Parthenon (500 BC to 500 AD (Try 1AD to 200AD)
- The Colossus (1200 BC to 300 AD (Oracle MC or hope to get lucky)

I'd also draw a distinction between dates when you would feel safe in getting the wonder -- what you'd aim for if you wanted to be sure you got it -- and dates where you would still give it a shot, reasonably happy to take fail gold if you got beaten.

Additionally, when do you view it as necessary to start getting the specialized techs for the wonder in question? For Oracle: when do you start heading down mysticism -> poly/med -> priesthood? For Great Lighthouse, at what point do you make sure to get Sailing -> Masonry? And so forth.

Getting the techs is a matter of planning to finish the wonders by the "safe" date and answering that is somewhat redundant.

As you can see, the wonders can go ridiculously early, on occasion before you can realistically get them. Watching GLH go at say 1600 BC and missing it by 4 turns is very frustrating, but it happens. Then you read someone else's summary and they got it at 1000 BC on the same or higher difficulty (and in one case, criticize your not getting it ).

This is also why I don't like gunning for wonders in a risky fashion (allowing AI to settle nearby sites that are good or cutting military to the point of being unable to defend); there's always a risk they go very early. Even safe-ish plays like TGL with marble can backfire when another AI with marble beelines it. Don't say it doesn't happen, either. While rare, it CAN and DOES and when it happens there is NO WAY that ANYBODY here gets the wonder...so the trick IMO is learning to win w/o making meaningful sacrifices for them, or to accept that sometimes your position will be quite terrible as you get beaten to wonders you were selling out to reach.

Also note: My above times are for IMM/Normal standard size/#opponents. If you play larger maps/slower speeds expect the wonders to get closer to the extreme early dates on average.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

Thanks TMIT, that's helpful, and pretty much in line with my (admittedly limited) experience.

About the "dates to get techs" thing -- I realize it's technically redundant if you've already got a target date for the wonder, and have made the calculations. What I was looking for is just rules of thumb that, as you're balancing your early priorities, can help you quickly decide whether to even think about pursuing a certain wonder. Since I'm used to lower difficulties I have to remind myself of what's realistic, and make sure not to attempt too much. For instance, I've already settled a couple cities, done a couple worker techs and writing, and realize there's no religion on my landmass; should I try to Oracle CoL for Confu? Well, if it's 1900 BC and I haven't even started teching polytheism, then no.

Of course such rules of thumb are redundant if you calculate everything carefully, but I don't.

 

[vranasm]

great... finally some dates. Will be really interesting in the Bismarck game... as it seems Oracle should away and my alternate plan with GLH is in danger too.

I begin to feel that the game will be one big fiasco

 

[DMOC]

This reminds me of the time when Justinian I built Stonehenge on a deity epic game at ...

3175 BC.

 

[Tristan_C]

- The Great Lighthouse 1800BC to 200AD (try to get by 1200BC)

I'm surprised by your estimate on this one. I play below Immortal, but if I spawn on a coast this thing seems to go before stonehenge. Multiple failures have taught me not to even bother unless I get sailing 3rd or earlier.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm surprised by your estimate on this one. I play below Immortal, but if I spawn on a coast this thing seems to go before stonehenge. Multiple failures have taught me not to even bother unless I get sailing 3rd or earlier.

You can do yourself some favors with demographic analysis as you can get some idea of how many AI are coastal. I don't actually do this, but it can make a decision toward GLH safer.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Off topic, but wouldn't it be a great addition if there was a global event that someone has started on a wonder?

"There are rumors that [X|A distant civilization] is constructing The Pyramids"

That would (a) make getting wonders less of a crapshoot, and most interestingly (b) deter wonder building by advertising "X is not building military at the moment"...

 

[need my speed]

Yes, I liked that feature in Civilization 3, and I would like to have it back. There does exist a mod that displays a message like that, and also a message when a wonder has been destroyed (the city where it was in was thus razed), but I think (but I really don't know) that was only available with a few other mods. Or perhaps it was downloadable as a stand alone, but in a post with other small mods.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I'm surprised by your estimate on this one. I play below Immortal, but if I spawn on a coast this thing seems to go before stonehenge. Multiple failures have taught me not to even bother unless I get sailing 3rd or earlier.

On deity TGLH is pretty safe if you get it around 1800 BC, which gives you time to get BW for chops / whips. Don't know how it can possibly go before stonehenge, seeing as that's usually the first or second wonder to go. TGLH is one of the easier wonders to get in my experience.

 

[Tristan_C]

On deity TGLH is pretty safe if you get it around 1800 BC, which gives you time to get BW for chops / whips. Don't know how it can possibly go before stonehenge, seeing as that's usually the first or second wonder to go. TGLH is one of the easier wonders to get in my experience.

Spawning by the coast often indicates a 60+% water map in which GLH would be useful; in such cases I have lost the wonder repeatedly by delaying sailing only a small amount, and it was the first wonder to go. Usually henge goes first, but if there's a lot of blue my AIs seem to clamor for the GLH.

 

[CaF]

Off topic, but wouldn't it be a great addition if there was a global event that someone has started on a wonder?

"There are rumors that [X|A distant civilization] is constructing The Pyramids"

That would (a) make getting wonders less of a crapshoot, and most interestingly (b) deter wonder building by advertising "X is not building military at the moment"...

You can use the trade screen post-alphabet for this. If Mansa Musa doesn't want to trade away Democracy because "he has his reasons for that", what's he doing? Building the Statue of Liberty for you.
Before Alphabet it's difficult and a matter of experience, which I don't have.

 

[Manco Capac]

In a situation where we kill the religious founders (Buddism, Hinduism and Judaism) early, is it possible to observe later Oracle dates? I noticed that kind of situation, but is it generally true? I think the loser AI's to the religious race gives up and often (not always) switch immediately to workers techs, making access to priesthood later for remaining civs.

 

[Manco Capac]

In a situation where we kill the religious founders (Buddism, Hinduism and Judaism) early, is it possible to observe later Oracle dates? I noticed that kind of situation, but is it generally true? I think the loser AI's to the religious race gives up and often (not always) switch immediately to workers techs, making access to priesthood later for remaining civs.

Hey Tachy. It is possible that it delays the Oracle date. I just made an attempt on immortal and I got the Oracle at 1300 BC, later than usual. Thanks to myself.

It's annoying that I never get any answers. At least, spammers get their deal of replies.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In a situation where we kill the religious founders (Buddism, Hinduism and Judaism) early, is it possible to observe later Oracle dates? I noticed that kind of situation, but is it generally true? I think the loser AI's to the religious race gives up and often (not always) switch immediately to workers techs, making access to priesthood later for remaining civs.

Just declaring a War against religion founders may be sufficient to cause them to put the The Oracle on hold and build military units instead. Certainly capturing an AI City that was building The Oracle will increase the chances of The Oracle being delayed.

There are less drastic ways to delay The Oracle:

1) Avoid enemy leaders with the Industrious trait.

2) Avoid enemy leaders with a high Great Wonder build probability.

3) Avoid the Tribal Village option where the AI can pop Technologies. Any Technology the AI pops is one less it needs to research and increases the chance of the AI researching the Mysticism -> Meditation/Polytheism -> Priesthood path. It is also possible for the AI to pop Mysticism; I'm not sure about Meditation, Polytheism or Priesthood, since I don't recall having popped any of them myself.

4) Use the minimum number of AI permitted on the map size being used. There will thus obviously be fewer AI Leaders trying to complete The Oracle and the first of a smaller number of AIs will usually be a later date. Also, with fewer AI Civs, there will be more land for the AIs to expand into causing the AIs to be more focused on building Settlers and units to support new cities, thus taking away Hammers that would otherwise be spend on building Great Wonders.

?) I've heard some players put a single turn into The Oracle in an attempt to make the AI think they will lose the race and thus never start it, but I don't really believe this actually works at all.

The HOF Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory tables can be a treasure trove of information regarding how late The Oracle can be built, because RL DV games almost always use The Oracle to get Theology. It is useful at Deity level at least, because Theology is about the latest Technology that can be gotten from The Oracle at Deity level without extreme measures such as using a Great Scientist to bulb Mathematics while researching Code of Laws for a Civil Service sling-shot.

Higher level HOF Cultural Victory tables can be a treasure trove of Oracle dates, since the Civil Service sling-shot is more viable at Emperor/Immortal levels than Deity level, but an AI will still occasionally beat the unwary player.

Please ask any questions you have and I'll do my best to answer them.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

1) Avoid enemy leaders with the Industrious trait.

Yes, I do that. Usually, the only industrious leader I tolerate is De Gaulle because of his little interest in wonders (except maybe the The Great Wall).

2) Avoid enemy leaders with a high Great Wonder build probability.

Sometimes, I want some good techers and it can be a double-edged sword because of its inherent love for wonders. This was the fact that made me flinched.

3) Avoid the Tribal Village option where the AI can pop Technologies. Any Technology the AI pops is one less it needs to research and increases the chance of the AI researching the Mysticism -> Meditation/Polytheism -> Priesthood path. It is also possible for the AI to pop Mysticism; I'm not sure about Meditation, Polytheism or Priesthood, since I don't recall having popped any of them myself.

Huts on high levels are kinda useless and benefit more the AI than our civilization.
Every religious tech permitting to found one religion is forbidden to be popped. Priesthood can be popped though. Your hesitation shows your tribal huts hate.

?) I've heard some players put a single turn into The Oracle in an attempt to make the AI think they will lose the race and thus never start it, but I don't really believe this actually works at all.

I did try this trick, but I can't see how real the consequence can be. That would be an excellent question to the community.

It's nice I can count on you for high quality answers.
Thanks, STW.

 

[vranasm]

this 1h trick is supposed to work based on AI cheating with informations (they should know when you start building a wonder regardless of spy level), it's actual influence is really hard to track...

For example in the succession game I am currently in (Lionised and...) in my TS after discovering of masonry I have put 1 turn of hammers into Mids, but since the stone wasn't connected yet, I built then something else.
The player after me finished Mids easily (stone online and chops)

now ask yourself... did we get the Mids easily due to us putting the 1t hammers in or just generally because we focused on getting mids with chops and connecting stone in 3rd city asap?

Maybe you could do some testing with it though. Don't put hammers in mids and follow the date of mids and replay the map with putting hammers and not finishing mids and waiting when the mids show up.
But since everything is rng based, it's tough to predict after 2 games the usual behavior.

More useful is to track the date of Great Wall, which is much better indicator ;-)