Eastern civ in development

[civ_king]

@ civ king guess I dont understand your question



Just curious... cause I know there are lots of things going on for the next patch... Any progress on this civ? its easier to brainstorm and think of ideas when we know whats going on.

metal could be the melee line, you get access to copper, iron & mithril via that line so that could be metals job, k?

 

[arkham4269]

It's been a long time since I posted to this thread, but I saw the link from the 0.30 workshop thread and wanted to post a question/comment. First off, what race is the Dao going to be? There was some discussions of them being panda type critters. The reason I asked is for awhile I couldn't play Orbis for technical reasons (long story) so I ended up playing a lot of Planetfall, Dune Wars and more importantly History of the Three Kingdoms mod.

If the Dao are human, this mod has buckets (and more!) of unique unit graphics.

That and it's great general/army system has got to be one of the best additions every designed for Civ IV.

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, if you want Pandas there is a lot of art here... Just check the last image.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8656625&postcount=523

 

[arkham4269]

Actually, if you want Pandas there is a lot of art here... Just check the last image.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8656625&postcount=523

I'm not saying one way or the other; my thought was that for the ease of creating the civ, the amount of human graphics from HoTK and other mods would mean a lot of potential looks for all the units.

I'm not a graphic artist (I don't even play one on TV) so I don't know how hard it would be to take human graphics and fiddle with them to make them tubbier and panda faces.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm not saying one way or the other; my thought was that for the ease of creating the civ, the amount of human graphics from HoTK and other mods would mean a lot of potential looks for all the units.

I'm not a graphic artist (I don't even play one on TV) so I don't know how hard it would be to take human graphics and fiddle with them to make them tubbier and panda faces.

Really, the Pandaren art there was linked as a joke. I had started a wave (Google Wave; Quite a few of the modders are on there, Opera and Grey Fox contributed to this one; Ahwaric has access but never said anything about it. ) about an eastern civ, used the pandas as a joke there too. Preferably I'd collaborate with Ahwaric, here.

Some ideas from the wave:

• Focus on the four (Five, if you count Spirit) elements. Maybe use actual Chinese elements instead of western ones?
  • Western Elements - Water, Air, Fire, Earth. Spirit if you want. This one gives itself to magic/spells pretty well.
  • Eastern Elements - Wood, Metal, Fire, Water, Earth. This one gives itself to constructs/elementals pretty well.
• Focus on caste, on horoscope
  • Possibly using a system like this?
• Possibly a religious focus... Several major religions spread out from those areas, and there are MANY famous temples.
  • Most Eastern religions weren't true 'Religions'; There wasn't really a god. Either Ancestor worship, or teaching you how to live, rather than getting you to believe in something greater. Maybe some national wondersor unique civics? I know there's been talk of removing unique civics entirely, but with the civic screen Xienwolf added (VERY nice, I might add) unique civics are only visible to people who can use them. Would let you add several, some in the same category and some in different categories that either work together or conflict... Better than showing it as a new religion, as this way you see it's more of a cultural thing. They can adopt religions, but their culture changes how it is followed.
• High population? xD
• Early access to things like Gunpowder... More science than most civs.

 

[arkham4269]

Some ideas from the wave:

Well I expounded quite heavily on this thread when it started. I guess my biggest questions is whether Ahwaric is thinking of one or two Eastern Civs. He seemed to favor a Tibetan/Nepalese Civ along (perhaps) with a more 'classic' Chinese/Korean/Japanese one. I'm thinking that the C/K/T one would me more heavy into combat and the high population and the T/N one would be more like the elemental one. I'm thinking by the name Dao, that he's going more for the T/N. line.

 

[Valkrionn]

Just found something that could be easily used as an Oriental leader...

Spoiler :

 

[arkham4269]

Just found something that could be easily used as an Oriental leader...

Spoiler :

She must have a beautiful singing voice; she has such healthy...lungs.

 

[Wauthan]

While I'm not against anime style illustrations per se I am a bit wary seeing it inside Orbis. Just seems like a bad clash of styles. Granted, it might be hard to find suitable illustrations if one removes that option.

 

[Valkrionn]

That one isn't really anime style; It's really not too far from a lot of art used in FfH, honestly. Trust me, I feel the same way... Won't use art that doesn't 'fit' with the rest.

 

[Ahwaric]

A quick reply, I will try to post more tomorrow

In short, Dao are:

• Taoist/buddhist version of chinese, rather than confucian
• more chinese/tybetan than japanise/korean
• rely on elementals, but have standard units, too
• elements are standard ones (western, but also buddhist), not chinese ones. But I want to add some to make it more diverse
  will probably be agnostic, more spiritual than religious

And yes, they will be in 0.30. Or in first big patch after it, if I will rush things.

She must have a beautiful singing voice; she has such healthy...lungs.

Yeah And as much as I like her... lungs, I do not think this picture fits - for me, it is anime.
But I have most of the pictures I need. You can check one of the Dao leaders in 0.24 P. Look for Ruolan. - I hope you like her

I had started a wave (Google Wave; Quite a few of the modders are on there, Opera and Grey Fox contributed to this one; Ahwaric has access but never said anything about it. ) about an eastern civ, used the pandas as a joke there too. Preferably I'd collaborate with Ahwaric, here.

I am sorry. There are so many discussions I would have to read to be up to date, and I have so little time
But I will try to help there, trust me.
By the way, great idea about build orders. Sorry for being silent before. I will certainly have a use for it.

 

[Opera]

She must have a beautiful singing voice; she has such healthy...lungs.

Yeah, she has beautiful lungs

I'm not sure I like the picture though... Same as Wauthan.

---

I'm really thinking about giving a try to designing a C/K/J eastern civ, more military oriented... Perhaps with, as arkham said, a focus on high population and also conscription. If you have any more ideas, I'd be pleased to read them

(as a note to Ahwaric, I really like Ruolan )

 

[arkham4269]

I'm really thinking about giving a try to designing a C/K/J eastern civ, more military oriented... Perhaps with, as arkham said, a focus on high population and also conscription. If you have any more ideas, I'd be pleased to read them

Well if you back up a bit in this thread, I discuss my views. My principle problem is that my idea for a good C/K/J theme is far to similar to the Scions. I mean one aspect of the Chinese and Japanese history is a long history along with isolationism with a 'healthy' dose of considering anyone not them to be barely above barbarian pond-scum. I originally thought they'd sort of have a trend toward few, big cities...which makes them too much like the Kuriotates.

So I'm left with why a lot of us want this sort of Civ: I think it's because we love the flags on the back of their archers! Seriously, we like the flavor of the C/K/J warriors so I guess we could focus on that. As I mentioned in the civ balancing in regards to conquest. I believe the Conquest civic could be split into Conquest, Crusade and Imperialism. Crusade is warfare for (insert your diety here) while Imperialism is expansion for economic reasons (with lots of manifest destiny thrown in) Conquest, however, I see as being conquest for the fight.

So perhaps this Asian race is inherently martial, sort of like the Klingons and Mandalorians; the fight is all. The only way to prove oneself is via combat. I'm not sure which religion would apply to them, but you could be it would be heavy with something like "don't die a straw death; better to die young in battle and go to Valhalla" sort of theme.

While the Chinese where great philosophers, scientists and the like, I think here we could take a bit from the Mongols and that since combat is all, this race (the working name I had was Senshi) would have a problem with the development of non-combat buildings or tech development. Perhaps they would have UB that would worse than the standard generic building

So they' have to do a lot with 'stealing' tech via their ninjas as well as subsuming tech when conquering others. I would think they'd have to have some sort of version of 'Conqueror/Tolerant' that would allow them to build the 'normal' version of standard buildings. So instead of their cruddy version of library, they'd be able to build regular libraries in captured cities.

Anyway, I'm just talking out of my behind at this point. However I think that a C/K/J race needs to focus on combat as their main theme. One nice thing about this race is that I think that the HoTK mod has got every possible unit graphic you'd need!

 

[Opera]

Okay, so... Know that I'm thinking with LENA in mind, not just Orbis.

First, I'm thinking a sort of focus on great generals (part of the militaristic orientation). So, a boost like +100%. But also a unique great general, something like a Great Shogun or whatnot (I will let names for the experts), able to be grafted to units (like a normal one) for +8XP (3 more) and perhaps a new promotion, allowing unique promotions for the unit it's attached to. Add to that new buildings to build and I think this mechanic is solid enough.

Secondly, I'd like an Emperor mechanic... Like a specialist settlable in cities granting various bonuses like +3 happiness, +4 gpp... The problem would be the AI I think, especially if we make it so if the Emperor is lost, the civ dies.

Thirdly, a thing for dragons and, of course, CotD. A third civ that could be convert to it (after Kurios and Sheaim). But I'm thinking they should get something like +100% chance that a religion spread to their cities and that even if the city already has a religion. Why? Because I view as a civilization that while united has a very renewing flow of ideas; philosophers and scientists argue a lot and are more open to new ideas. That could also be because of a more vigorous population, new generations coming faster than anywhere else...

... Fourthly, an increased growth of population. I don't know how yet; either with a special building (the reverse of the Elven Citizens building) or either with a special mechanic: -1 food needed. So instead of 3, they'd need 2. But that may be a pain to balance. The idea there would be that their body needs less food than other races' body. Although, since some other civs will share their race, that wouldn't be a unique mechanic for them (just saying; if I want to add it, I will).

(About their species: they would be of the same one as some of the new civs I'll include... not humans, but something approaching)

I'd see them with an increased techs cost due to a lack of organization of ideas. With such a boiling culture, either progress would be faster or slower because everyone is doing its own thing alone. For balance purpose, I think they should get a penalty. Plus that means we can enhance their military orientation by giving them the ability to gain techs (or science points) by capturing/razing cities.

... That's all for now, I think.

 

[arkham4269]

First, I'm thinking a sort of focus on great generals (part of the militaristic orientation). So, a boost like +100%. But also a unique great general, something like a Great Shogun or whatnot (I will let names for the experts), able to be grafted to units (like a normal one) for +8XP (3 more) and perhaps a new promotion, allowing unique promotions for the unit it's attached to. Add to that new buildings to build and I think this mechanic is solid enough.

I'd see them with an increased techs cost due to a lack of organization of ideas. With such a boiling culture, either progress would be faster or slower because everyone is doing its own thing alone. For balance purpose, I think they should get a penalty. Plus that means we can enhance their military orientation by giving them the ability to gain techs (or science points) by capturing/razing cities.

... That's all for now, I think.

Perhaps they might have some (more) UB that can only be built by Great Generals.

OTOH, if the HoTK general/army system gets ported in (which I think should) being able to generate more great generals would be really important since I think you'd trend to using them to create armies rather than the great general buildings. having more of them would really give them a combat boost.

Limiting their tech seems to be the best way to go, forcing them to either steal or conquer to get techs faster.

 

[arkham4269]

(About their species: they would be of the same one as some of the new civs I'll include... not humans, but something approaching)

Well how hard is it to take a human graphic from a mod like HoTK and fiddle with it to make it look non-human? I don't really know enough about how the graphic skins are created to know how much they can be fiddled with.

Doing a quick search for different humanoids, I think the best bet would be to make them look like the Japanese Oni.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni_%28folklore%29

Now I'm thinking of only taking the look, not the lore behind them. Although perhaps the original Oni where human but tricked by Agares (or someone) and became corrupted over time similar to how orcs are a corruption of elves in Tolkien. I mean during the Age of Ice, you'd have a lot of desperate people.

I'm thinking of some thing in the sense that they are 'possessed' in a symbiotic way by damned souls. Even in death, you are reborn to fight and kill another day. This merging of new souls w/damned souls results in the larger bodies, horns, fangs and red skin.

I would think this would be a race that would sort of have the opposite problem with war weariness - to much peace would cause strife.

 

[Opera]

Perhaps they might have some (more) UB that can only be built by Great Generals.

Yes, that's what I had in mind actually.

OTOH, if the HoTK general/army system gets ported in (which I think should) being able to generate more great generals would be really important since I think you'd trend to using them to create armies rather than the great general buildings. having more of them would really give them a combat boost.

Well, yeah, with that system it would be even better; but I fear it might be a tad hard to merge.

Limiting their tech seems to be the best way to go, forcing them to either steal or conquer to get techs faster.

Well, to do both actually, since they'd be conquering AND stealing at the same time.

Well how hard is it to take a human graphic from a mod like HoTK and fiddle with it to make it look non-human? I don't really know enough about how the graphic skins are created to know how much they can be fiddled with.

Doing a quick search for different humanoids, I think the best bet would be to make them look like the Japanese Oni.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni_%28folklore%29

Now I'm thinking of only taking the look, not the lore behind them. Although perhaps the original Oni where human but tricked by Agares (or someone) and became corrupted over time similar to how orcs are a corruption of elves in Tolkien. I mean during the Age of Ice, you'd have a lot of desperate people.

I'm thinking of some thing in the sense that they are 'possessed' in a symbiotic way by damned souls. Even in death, you are reborn to fight and kill another day. This merging of new souls w/damned souls results in the larger bodies, horns, fangs and red skin.

I would think this would be a race that would sort of have the opposite problem with war weariness - to much peace would cause strife.

No. That race has been created by another god to look like humans; but they don't possess the divine spark. They really look like humans except that they grow faster and live less long than humans. When they became aware of the other races, they began to try to fight their "curse" of dying sooner than other people; either by militaristic prowess or by truly searching immortality.

So, no possession, no corruption and not so much need to fiddle with graphics.

As for leaders, those pictures I like:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1630883&postcount=65
http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/7_2.jpg
Perhaps: http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/art/The-Aggressive-Grace-of-Battle-83519206
(I liked this one too but I'm thinking it should go to the Kurios)

I also have other pictures but I need to find links before I can show them

 

[Ahwaric]

Decided to post some more, to say what will and what won't be Dao.

I want some imperial Chinese & Japanese influences for Dao. I have even thought of some kind of elemental samurais...
In general, they will be very spiritual, with deep conections do the elements of reality. No central empire, but rather collection of small countries with many hilltop monasteries...
You get the general picture I hope - and the Dao you cen precisely describe, is not the real Dao

HoTK general system
Well, yeah, with that system it would be even better; but I fear it might be a tad hard to merge.

Actually, I may end as the merging one...
But not in the next two weeks - I promised myself to not even check how does it work...

As for leaders, those pictures I like:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1630883&postcount=65
http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/7_2.jpg
Perhaps: http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/art/The-Aggressive-Grace-of-Battle-83519206
(I liked this one too but I'm thinking it should go to the Kurios)
I also have other pictures but I need to find links before I can show them

I am thinking of using the second picture for the second female leader of dao - a militaristic one, fire aspect

 

[civ_king]

for growth maybe a building that reduces the food needed to grow by 25%? for the food bar you fill to grow, it would lead to faster filling and therefore faster growth while if you changed them to need two food you would have to rebalance most of the improvements so I think my proposal would be a lesser PITA to code

for technology: NINJAS!!!

they need five elements:
* Wood (Chinese: 木, pinyin: mù)
* Fire (Chinese: 火, pinyin: hu&#466
* Earth (Chinese: 土, pinyin: t&#468
* Metal (Chinese: 金, pinyin: jīn)
* Water (Chinese: 水, pinyin: shu&#464

 

[Opera]

@Ahwaric: Sure, go ahead for the picture

Do you think Dao and my idea would overlap too much? I'd like them to be different enough....

@civ_king: perhaps just a building increasing the food gained? There's nothing in the code (yet) to reduce the food needed by a percent and I think increasing the food gained would have the same effect. And I agree, your way (rather than modifying the food points per pop) would be less of a PITA.

As for ninjas, not sure yet