sethryclaus
Chieftain
Peaceful Eleanor has actually been one of my favourites for ages but this is the first time I've actually tried to work out the subtleties. I discovered some interesting things, provided my math actually represents reality.
Population Pressure
The loyalty change is scaled based on the difference in pressure VS the size of the losing pressure (domestic or foreign).
I've created tables showing the pop pressure for a defending city with 4 friendly cities against 5 foreign cities. The two tables vary on the pop per city and average distance from the target city, displayed as <pop>@<dist>, e.g. Foreign 6@6 is foreign cities have 6 pop each and average 6 tiles away from the target city.
Golden+ is golden age with bread and circuses. Otherwise, bread and circuses essentially bumps the city up an age state. I'm assuming that bread and circuses is done in a co-ordinated way across all cities.
Base Case
This is the base case for a border city in the middle of the "loyalty war" with reasonable city placement. This gives us a "target loyalty" of 4.9 for the most vulnerable city on a border if we're golden and they're normal. Additionally, even mass bread and circuses won't overcome distance in this case.
Closer Cities
Decreasing the foreign city average distance to 6.5.
Bigger Cities
Give the foreign player 8 pop per city instead of 6.
Closer & Bigger
Foreign is both 8 pop and 6.5 tiles away.
So moving all your cities 1 tile closer to the enemy is roughly equivalent to 2 pops in every city.
Capital cities have their pressure counted twice but the second time is as a normal age pop. I suspect that the second time also isn't affected by bread and circuses. So Capitals may have a big effect for a defender in a dark age but not so much for a loyalty attacker.
As far as city placement goes, my takeaway is that my initial build be at a 4 tile distance; either a 4 city diamond or a 6 city triangle with as much border contact as possible.
City Modifiers
City modifiers are flat bonuses and maluses so we need some baseline to compare them to.
Playing around with my spreadsheet yields the idea that 8 loyalty per turn seems to be what the flat bonuses must overcome.
Removing governors with spies is utterly pivotal.
Analysis of Pillaging Targets
/ things civ players say
Low loyalty affects tile yields (-50% at < 50 loyalty, for example) so using mass bread & circus to put a civ's border cities below 50 might cause them to starve, irrespective of tile yield.
If bread & circuses are an option, pillaging farms probably isn't worth it early game but post-feudalism, it is definitely a winner.
Pillaging luxuries is always going to be a much higher priority at all phases of the game.
Using spies to foment unrest to put a city below 50 loyalty also looks much better when taking starvation into account.
Amenities
There's actually 12 loyalty in play here which is huge. Ideas:
Religion VS Commerce VS Bread & Circuses
Best case that I can come up with from Bread & Circuses in *all* your cities is 8 loyalty. I think it's mainly a defensive project as it diminishes with distance offensively. Also, not building anything is a severe malus.
If you are able to flip a city's religion against a Civ that has founded a religion, that's +3 for you and -3 for them, for a 6 point swing. That's pretty good. Only 3 points against a civ that hasn't founded a civ.
Having plenty of money to buy extra luxuries your neighbours need from non-neighbours is probably going to have at least a 3 point loyalty benefit. So harbours or commerce districts can win big as well.
Commercial & harbour districts also give trade routes, which feed straight into the strategy of pumping your border cities and being at peace with people. You're always going to want to buy theatre district buildings in newly conquered cities as well.
Religion *might* be a more reliable loyalty swing than luxury denial.
Luxury denial disproportionately affects larger cities and the AI also has no direct or indirect luxury bonus while the penalties are proportional and so hit all the AI's other bonuses. It's actually a good way to attack them.
Finally, the AI gets a combat bonus in religious combat so you're probably going to lose late game while commerce will actually help you stay friends with the AI.
Bad Neighbours
Assuming you're going full peaceful like me w/ categories of badness and conclusion:
Essentially, a religious focus is problematic in a neighbour, bonus amenities will put them out of reach until you have a lot of great works.
What actually happened...
First 100 turns were basically:
I rushed Guilds (the one that doubles IZ adjacency bonuses) and initially skipped workshops to prioritise amphitheatres and theatre squares.
I got my golden age in the renaissance and made a little note with all the luxuries my neighbours had, trading all the spare copies of the ones they didn't have from all the empires I knew. I think this did have an effect because I flipped 3 cities almost straight out of the gates.
I also got a great scientist that boosted cartography & square rigging so that, after finishing Petra, my tech tree looked like this:
This is one of the lessons I learn from this playthrough - the peaceful strat means you can go mega-greedy into topside of the tech tree while on Deity. I've never dreamt of this in even an immortal game before.
Anyway, long story short - bread and circuses are a red herring, religion is irrelevant, IZs are the win condition and it sucks if you somehow miss Taj Mahal (though I got Forbidden Palace, Potala & Big Ben so go figure).
Also, you can and should spend all of your money and anything you can to buy the AI's great works off them. Great works are essentially your soldiers (I have 52 at this point).
Finally, population pressure isn't as big a deal as you'd think because of the reality of city layout and the range dropoff vs Eleanor's 9-tile zone of death. I don't know how to tell if AIs are in golden ages but I'm pretty sure I flipped a few cities in GAs because when the era rolled over, the Maori collapsed and flipped 5 cities in about 10 turns.
T276 and I've flipped 12 cities (founded 8) and am 2-3 columns ahead on tech, well into future culture (103 military strength too):
Like most of my games, I can't be bothered finishing it but I thought I'd share.
Next time I'm going to try and get stonehenge as I think that, with spread distance and spread strength bonuses is basically the only time religion would be worth it.
Population Pressure
The loyalty change is scaled based on the difference in pressure VS the size of the losing pressure (domestic or foreign).
I've created tables showing the pop pressure for a defending city with 4 friendly cities against 5 foreign cities. The two tables vary on the pop per city and average distance from the target city, displayed as <pop>@<dist>, e.g. Foreign 6@6 is foreign cities have 6 pop each and average 6 tiles away from the target city.
Golden+ is golden age with bread and circuses. Otherwise, bread and circuses essentially bumps the city up an age state. I'm assuming that bread and circuses is done in a co-ordinated way across all cities.
Base Case
Code:
╔══════════════════╦══════╦════════╦════════╦═════════╗
║ Foreign 6@7.5 → ║ Dark ║ Normal ║ Golden ║ Golden+ ║
║ ↓ Domestic 6@5.5 ║ ║ ║ ║ ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Dark ║ 12.4 ║ 1.2 ║ -3.4 ║ -7.9 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Normal ║ 34.8 ║ 12.4 ║ 4.9 ║ 1.2 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Golden ║ 57.2 ║ 23.6 ║ 12.4 ║ 6.8 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Golden+ ║ 79.6 ║ 34.8 ║ 19.9 ║ 12.4 ║
╚══════════════════╩══════╩════════╩════════╩═════════╝Closer Cities
Code:
╔══════════════════╦══════╦════════╦════════╦═════════╗
║ Foreign 6@6.5 → ║ Dark ║ Normal ║ Golden ║ Golden+ ║
║ ↓ Domestic 6@5.5 ║ ║ ║ ║ ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Dark ║ 6 ║ -2.5 ║ -8.8 ║ -15 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Normal ║ 22 ║ 6 ║ 0.7 ║ -2.5 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Golden ║ 38 ║ 14 ║ 6 ║ 2 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Golden+ ║ 54 ║ 22 ║ 11.3 ║ 6 ║
╚══════════════════╩══════╩════════╩════════╩═════════╝Bigger Cities
Code:
╔══════════════════╦══════╦════════╦════════╦═════════╗
║ Foreign 8@7.5 → ║ Dark ║ Normal ║ Golden ║ Golden+ ║
║ ↓ Domestic 6@5.5 ║ ║ ║ ║ ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Dark ║ 6.8 ║ -1.9 ║ -7.9 ║ -13.8 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Normal ║ 23.6 ║ 6.8 ║ 1.2 ║ -1.9 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Golden ║ 40.4 ║ 15.2 ║ 6.8 ║ 2.6 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Golden+ ║ 57.2 ║ 23.6 ║ 12.4 ║ 6.8 ║
╚══════════════════╩══════╩════════╩════════╩═════════╝Closer & Bigger
Code:
╔══════════════════╦══════╦════════╦════════╦═════════╗
║ Foreign 8@6.5 → ║ Dark ║ Normal ║ Golden ║ Golden+ ║
║ ↓ Domestic 6@5.5 ║ ║ ║ ║ ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Dark ║ 2 ║ -6.7 ║ -15 ║ -23.3 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Normal ║ 14 ║ 2 ║ -2.5 ║ -6.7 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Golden ║ 26 ║ 8 ║ 2 ║ -1.1 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════╬════════╬════════╬═════════╣
║ Golden+ ║ 38 ║ 14 ║ 6 ║ 2 ║
╚══════════════════╩══════╩════════╩════════╩═════════╝So moving all your cities 1 tile closer to the enemy is roughly equivalent to 2 pops in every city.
Capital cities have their pressure counted twice but the second time is as a normal age pop. I suspect that the second time also isn't affected by bread and circuses. So Capitals may have a big effect for a defender in a dark age but not so much for a loyalty attacker.
As far as city placement goes, my takeaway is that my initial build be at a 4 tile distance; either a 4 city diamond or a 6 city triangle with as much border contact as possible.
City Modifiers
Code:
╔═════════════════════════╦════════╗
║ Bonus/Malus ║ Effect ║
╠═════════════════════════╬════════╣
║ 1-2 amenity difference ║ 3 ║
║ Religion ║ ║
╠═════════════════════════╬════════╣
║ 2+ amenity difference ║ 6 ║
╠═════════════════════════╬════════╣
║ Governor ║ 8 ║
║ Government Plaza ║ ║
╠═════════════════════════╬════════╣
║ Amani w/ Prestige (+/-) ║ 2 ║
╠═════════════════════════╬════════╣
║ Monument ║ 1 ║
║ Eleanor Great Work ║ ║
╠═════════════════════════╬════════╣
║ Starvation ║ 4 ║
╚═════════════════════════╩════════╝City modifiers are flat bonuses and maluses so we need some baseline to compare them to.
Playing around with my spreadsheet yields the idea that 8 loyalty per turn seems to be what the flat bonuses must overcome.
Removing governors with spies is utterly pivotal.
Analysis of Pillaging Targets
/ things civ players say
Low loyalty affects tile yields (-50% at < 50 loyalty, for example) so using mass bread & circus to put a civ's border cities below 50 might cause them to starve, irrespective of tile yield.
If bread & circuses are an option, pillaging farms probably isn't worth it early game but post-feudalism, it is definitely a winner.
Pillaging luxuries is always going to be a much higher priority at all phases of the game.
Using spies to foment unrest to put a city below 50 loyalty also looks much better when taking starvation into account.
Amenities
There's actually 12 loyalty in play here which is huge. Ideas:
- Trade luxuries to neighbours early, being careful to break the deals (can pillage your own tiles to do this) when you want to push loyalty against them. This will leave them with cities based on more luxuries than they have.
- Trade non-neighbour's extra luxuries that your neighbours need to deny them, regardless of whether you need them.
- Flip any city states which your neighbours are going for, that provide luxuries.
Religion VS Commerce VS Bread & Circuses
Best case that I can come up with from Bread & Circuses in *all* your cities is 8 loyalty. I think it's mainly a defensive project as it diminishes with distance offensively. Also, not building anything is a severe malus.
If you are able to flip a city's religion against a Civ that has founded a religion, that's +3 for you and -3 for them, for a 6 point swing. That's pretty good. Only 3 points against a civ that hasn't founded a civ.
Having plenty of money to buy extra luxuries your neighbours need from non-neighbours is probably going to have at least a 3 point loyalty benefit. So harbours or commerce districts can win big as well.
Commercial & harbour districts also give trade routes, which feed straight into the strategy of pumping your border cities and being at peace with people. You're always going to want to buy theatre district buildings in newly conquered cities as well.
Religion *might* be a more reliable loyalty swing than luxury denial.
Luxury denial disproportionately affects larger cities and the AI also has no direct or indirect luxury bonus while the penalties are proportional and so hit all the AI's other bonuses. It's actually a good way to attack them.
Finally, the AI gets a combat bonus in religious combat so you're probably going to lose late game while commerce will actually help you stay friends with the AI.
Bad Neighbours
Assuming you're going full peaceful like me w/ categories of badness and conclusion:
Code:
╔══════════════════╦══════════╦════════════╦═══════════╦═══════╦═══════╗
║ Civ ║ Religion ║ Population ║ Amenities ║ Other ║ Total ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Trajan ║ ║ 2 ║ 2 ║ 1 ║ 5 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Montezuma ║ ║ ║ 4 ║ ║ 4 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Pedro ║ ║ ║ 4 ║ ║ 4 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ India ║ 1 ║ 1 ║ 2 ║ ║ 4 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Jayavarman ║ 2 ║ ║ 2 ║ ║ 4 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Suleiman ║ ║ ║ 4 ║ ║ 4 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Robert the Bruce ║ ║ ║ 4 ║ ║ 4 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Tamar ║ 2 ║ ║ ║ 1 ║ 3 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Gitarja ║ ║ 1 ║ 2 ║ ║ 3 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Phillip ║ 2 ║ ║ ║ 1 ║ 3 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Saladin ║ 2 ║ ║ ║ ║ 2 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Wilfrid Laurier ║ ║ ║ 2 ║ ║ 2 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Jadwiga ║ 2 ║ ║ ║ ║ 2 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Peter ║ 2 ║ ║ ║ ║ 2 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Kristina ║ ║ ║ ║ 2 ║ 2 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Shaka ║ ║ ║ ║ 2 ║ 2 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ John Curtin ║ ║ 1 ║ ║ ║ 1 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Pachacuti ║ ║ 1 ║ ║ ║ 1 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Mansa Musa ║ 1 ║ ║ ║ ║ 1 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Amanitore ║ 1 ║ ║ ║ ║ 1 ║
╠══════════════════╬══════════╬════════════╬═══════════╬═══════╬═══════╣
║ Tomyris ║ 1 ║ ║ ║ ║ 1 ║
╚══════════════════╩══════════╩════════════╩═══════════╩═══════╩═══════╝Essentially, a religious focus is problematic in a neighbour, bonus amenities will put them out of reach until you have a lot of great works.
What actually happened...
First 100 turns were basically:
- lots of slingers
- trading luxuries 2-3 times to neighbours so that they'd suffer more from the lack of them when I actually started "attacking"
- gifting strategic resources to get to friendly and generally not have to worry about wars
- Pingala for science
- my first +4 sci district, IZ and harbour all done in medieval to proc golden age in renaissance
- I also randomly had to get Petra (you'll see why) which actually screwed me up a bit but was OK in the long run
- ignoring entertainment districts because bread & circuses is terrible
- ignoring religion because it was really risky
- Babylon was a disgusting city state to get with this (science from great works)
I rushed Guilds (the one that doubles IZ adjacency bonuses) and initially skipped workshops to prioritise amphitheatres and theatre squares.
I got my golden age in the renaissance and made a little note with all the luxuries my neighbours had, trading all the spare copies of the ones they didn't have from all the empires I knew. I think this did have an effect because I flipped 3 cities almost straight out of the gates.
I also got a great scientist that boosted cartography & square rigging so that, after finishing Petra, my tech tree looked like this:
This is one of the lessons I learn from this playthrough - the peaceful strat means you can go mega-greedy into topside of the tech tree while on Deity. I've never dreamt of this in even an immortal game before.
Anyway, long story short - bread and circuses are a red herring, religion is irrelevant, IZs are the win condition and it sucks if you somehow miss Taj Mahal (though I got Forbidden Palace, Potala & Big Ben so go figure).
Also, you can and should spend all of your money and anything you can to buy the AI's great works off them. Great works are essentially your soldiers (I have 52 at this point).
Finally, population pressure isn't as big a deal as you'd think because of the reality of city layout and the range dropoff vs Eleanor's 9-tile zone of death. I don't know how to tell if AIs are in golden ages but I'm pretty sure I flipped a few cities in GAs because when the era rolled over, the Maori collapsed and flipped 5 cities in about 10 turns.
T276 and I've flipped 12 cities (founded 8) and am 2-3 columns ahead on tech, well into future culture (103 military strength too):
Like most of my games, I can't be bothered finishing it but I thought I'd share.
Next time I'm going to try and get stonehenge as I think that, with spread distance and spread strength bonuses is basically the only time religion would be worth it.
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