SilentConfusion
Emperor
I am starting to get worried, so I think we do need to do something like this. I'll get to it ASAP.
Embassy to Team Quatronia
- Thread starter SilentConfusion
- Start date
I am starting to get worried, so I think we do need to do something like this. I'll get to it ASAP.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
I'm going to send this in a few minutes to Team Quatronia. I have a feeling that Sommerswerd is right and this is why they are taking so long. They have to discuss with their Ally Mavs.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
It has been sent thusly, while the turn is still down between T51 and T52.
Will also send PM to Cav Scout and post that.
EDIT: Sent this to Cav Scout. I thought as diplomat it wouldn't hurt to be completely on their side, wanting them to join us, hoping we can work it out. And I also wanted to make it expressly clear that time is of the essence. I also hadn't given him my MSM username in case he wants to chat that way. Speed is important for both sides right now. It's a very tense moment and the outcome of this moment will have huge consequences for the rest of the game.
Will also send PM to Cav Scout and post that.
EDIT: Sent this to Cav Scout. I thought as diplomat it wouldn't hurt to be completely on their side, wanting them to join us, hoping we can work it out. And I also wanted to make it expressly clear that time is of the essence. I also hadn't given him my MSM username in case he wants to chat that way. Speed is important for both sides right now. It's a very tense moment and the outcome of this moment will have huge consequences for the rest of the game.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
Cav Scout sent this a half hour before now, you can look at my time stamp. They will give us a reply in 3 1/2 hours from now. We can wait that long. I will send a reply, saying that we will not send anything to Merlot in the next 4 hours, and thank him for his efforts in trying to speed things up.
EDIT: Sent this message, and I will check our mail a lot during the next 3 1/2 hours. And the cycle continues of being excited and then being suspicious and worried and then being excited again. At least this time there is a deadline along with the promise for a good outcome.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
We just received this 1 minute ago from Quatronia:
Dear Amazons,
Your last letter was extremely well recieved, it was just what we were hoping to hear. The ETTT is a magnificient idea and we are IN!
We spent time fretting over some concerns we are already glad to see quelled. It is great news that Sirius have Alphabet and we would switch to Mathematics immediately.
About the map: your analysis is correct, the map is star shaped with the 6 teams spaced around it in the order you described. Yes there does seem to be water channels that lead to a desert hub at the center of the star.
We also have a 2nd boat that is on the other edge of Merlot territory and will probably be meeting yours shortly. It seems that our two teams are ahead of the others as far as exploring.
About the Mavericks: They got the Oracle and used it to get Metal Casting. The heathens have also developed other faiths of Hinduism and Judaism, and continue to affront the Gods with their dreams of statues and wonders. We think they might be working the center of the tech tree in their misguided efforts, but cannot be sure, and once as we commit to friendship with you they may catch on and be mum with us all.
About CDZ: The Viking civilizations are close neighbors of ours and from hundreds of years ago our peoples have lived in peace and cooperation. We would hope you would welcome them as a fourth member of the alliance. We think they would be open to working a beneficial tech path for the alliance like Iron Working.
About Merlot: We made contact with one of their boats not too long ago but they don't seem very talkative. Perhaps their internal team dynamic makes it hard for them to communicate... or maybe they are just drinking lots of wine...
Finally, about the ETTT: We think getting 4 teams should be the goal. And based on the layout of the map and the positions of the teams we have an idea of which 4 teams those should be-
Our rationale is as follow:
1. All members of the alliance will have a friendly neighbor and a non-alliance neighbor. There is a nice symmetry that keeps things balanced between alliance members.
2. Merlot and Mavericks both have skilled players and it would be good to remove those teams first.
3. Merlot and Mavericks will be isolated from each other and will have a hard time cooperating. When there is war they will have to fight on two fronts, making them fall that much easier.
4. The map will be balanced for the 4 remaining alliance members moving into the next phase of the game.
This is just some preliminary thinking on our parts of course. The important thing is choosing the right fourth partner. But if you guys think this is a good idea that should be explored some more then you might consider holding back on sharing the ETTT with Merlot and Mavs for a bit.
Whicever teams we exclude, it would best to keep them in the dark about the ETTT for as long as possible. This might mean holding off on internal trades to avoid revealing our level of cooperation. We could even get one good round of trades in with the unfortunate teams initially (i.e. MC from Mavs) while the ETTT is still a secret. Then when the "jig was up" we would cut them off and they would find themselves without trading partners.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
This is exciting! Turns out they are friends with CDZ and that there's a good chance we could get them on board and have the "2 top teams and 2 bottom teams" that we were talking about. This gives each Alliance member a non-Alliance peninsula to contest. This is especially good for us because we plan to do a good bit of contesting I think. The Mavericks do have a whole list of Deity players, as they say and with the Oracle and more wonders to come, it would be nice if they were isolated. And as they point out it will be hard for them to rely on each other for support.
And it appears they don't talk much to Quatronia either, so Merlot's not just being short with us.
The plan about keeping the ETTT a secret to get a round of trading in with the Outsiders, also should be considered.
We should inform Sirius of this and let them both decide who is teching Math.
And it appears they don't talk much to Quatronia either, so Merlot's not just being short with us.
The plan about keeping the ETTT a secret to get a round of trading in with the Outsiders, also should be considered.
We should inform Sirius of this and let them both decide who is teching Math.
damnrunner
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 2,004
This is shaping up well.
Have Merlot and Mavericks even met yet. Our teams could easily prevent this from happening for a long time if we use galleys to kill work boats.
Have Merlot and Mavericks even met yet. Our teams could easily prevent this from happening for a long time if we use galleys to kill work boats.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
Good point. I'm not sure they have. We can ask Quatronia the locations of their workboats. That would of course give away the presence of the Alliance, but I think it could easily be worth it.
I think we should send them a short message confirming we got their letter and are very happy that they're aboard, and assure them that we will be holding off on talking to Merlot or the Mavs about it while we figure out what's the best course of action.
We can tell them that Sirius is teching Mathematics. And we can say that we will send them a message discussing our options in more detail.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
Cav Scout sent me this PM, but I was too fast. I had already posted his message before he sent this.
Subject: We are IN!
Subject: We are IN!
You guys have official mail.
-Cav
I agree that we should isolate Mavs and Merlot if we truly have our 4-way with CDZ... but not before then. Let's not start sinking peoples boats without the 4-way fully in place... We may end up having no choice but to make Merlot or Mavs the 4th partner... Especially Mavs if by chance CDZ and Merlot already have some agreement in the works.
Agree on telling the Q that they dont have to waste time going for Math. That is a high priority so they dont waste a turn teching it AND so they have plenty of time to figure out what they want to tech instead.
One thing I disagree with though. There is no point in wasting time hiding the alliance. If we have a 4 on 1, we are certainly not going to help the odd teams out by trading tech with them. I'm sure what the Q have in mind is that we could trick the Mavs into giving the alliance Metal Casting before we shut them out... But why bother? Let them keep Metal Casting while we speed through the tech tree... no reason to help them along with tech trades...
If Quatronia wants Metal Casting they can just tech it and be done with it, Or just go ahead with our alliance trades and tell Mavs... "As you can see we have been trading with the other teams and we have all the tech you do except Metal Casting... If you want to join the alliance and make it a 5 on 1 then give us Metal casting and declare war on Merlot... Otherwise have fun dying" Plus Mavs would never trade Metal Casting for anything less than Alpha, which we definitely don't want them to have unless they are already in the alliance.
Once we have a 4 team alliance the only thing we should be focusing on is REXing the land between us and the non-allies, while we frustrate their attempts to land... All the while speeding to Navigation so we can invade their home islands ASAP. If the odd teams out truly end up being Mavs and Merlot, then We can stagnate them entirely by denying them contact.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
Draft to the Q. The question about this is do we send it right away? Or wait for Sirius to confirm them in the Alliance. I do not think it is possible that Sirius will say "No. We don't want them." I think asking them is just a formality. We can send this out like it is, saying that we will send them word once we hear back from the Sirians, which allows them to potentially change tech paths already. Or we can wait until we hear acceptance from Sirius and then send this, though in that case I think we should tell Sirius to give us their decision about adding Q as quick as possible, while the rest of the stuff can wait.
Greetings to The Continuum,
We were very happy to get your response to our proposed Tech Alliance. We quickly sent off the good news to the Sirians, who I am sure will agree that this is a very joyous day for all involved. We suggested enthusiastically that the Sirians agree to work with Team Quatronia, and I am certain they will find that idea a very welcome one. We also mentioned the possibility that you would be able to convince CDZ to join our cause. How much do you know about them, and how likely do you think it is that we could get them to join? Do you know if they have already established any serious relations with House Merlot?
It does look like our two civilizations have had the same idea about the value of exploration. Have the Mavericks and House Merlot have met each other? Do you know the approximate locations of the other teams work boats? We haven't met one from the Mavs, CDZ, or Merlot, so they must not have sent any our way.
As far as the potential Tops & Bottoms Alliance, we had also come up with that that plan while waiting to hear back from you. We are happy to hear that it is a possibility. We think it is a good set-up for all of the reasons you mentioned. Our only concern is if CDZ and Merlot have already set up somewhat firm relations. In that case we might have to accept the Mavs instead, although our preference would be CDZ.
One thing we want to share with you, is the current tech plans of both the Sirians and The AMAZON so that we can make our combined Alliance-wide tech plan as efficient as possible. Between the two of us (Sirius and The AMAZON) we have knowledge of the following technologies: All first tier techs (Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, and Mining), all of the second tier techs except for Meditation (which you were the first to discover), Writing, and Alphabet. Sirius is currently researching Mathematics, and were planning to tech Currency after that. We are half-way through Monotheism on our way to Monarchy. We were thinking of researching Priesthood (optional prerequisite for Monarchy, Currency, and Code of Laws) before finishing Monotheism. You have suggested switching to Mathematics. Since Sirius has already started researching this we recommend choosing a different technology. Perhaps you could finish Priesthood while we finished Monotheism, which would allow us to start Monarchy sooner. You may already have some techs that we do not, in which case we can reevaluate again when we hear back from you.
We wonder if keeping the Alliance secret to attempt one round of tech trades with the "Outsiders" is really a good idea. We know that the prospect of attaining a tech like Metal Casting in a trade sounds good, but we'd have to give them technologies back, and if we put together a 4-Team Alliance, it doesn't seem a good idea to give them any techs at all. With four of us teching we can have Metal Casting and many other techs before too long, without having to give them anything. They cannot keep up with us if we don't help them, especially if it takes them a little while to meet each other and organize a tech treaty. We think it's probably wisest to have one our Alliance members tech Metal Casting for ourselves. If we just don't trade with them at all, they will quickly fall behind, even with an Oracled tech and some wonders. With 4 members in our Exclusive Tech-Trading Alliance (ETTA) our beakers are effectively worth 4 times as much as normal beakers, whereas even if Merlot and Mavs band together immediately, they're beakers are only worth half what ours are worth. Therefore a trade to be reasonable for us they'd have to give us twice the beakers that we're giving them, and I don't think they're going to want to do that. If we trade them even beakers they get the better deal.
Once we've got this initial stuff in place we can start discussing a deal between just our two civilizations to strengthen the bond between us. We are sure that you will have some ideas regarding the terms for this and we will give it some thought as well, but we are convinced that our two civilizations could benefit from working even more closely together.
We will let you know as soon as we hear from Team Sirius, and we can discuss further about the possible inclusion of CDZ in the ETTA.
Well I think we've done some good work today and we look forward to further discussion with you.
May you continue to have long lifetimes and flourish.
SilentConfusion
We're looking forward to
This is a good letter, as was the one that went to Sirius. I do have some thoughts on this letter:
1. Take out any reference to us having to wait for Sirius approval for them to be accepted. As far as we are concerned, they are in. If by some miracle, Sirius wants to reject them, then we have a conversation with Sirius and convince them.
I say this, first... because we don't want to make the mistake of letting the Q feel like they are a second fiddle to Sirius. We want the Q to feel like we all entered this alliance together, at basically the same time and therefore we are all Primary partners. This will make them even more confident about their sub-alliance with us, because they will feel like they are a founding party to the alliance, rather than a Johnny-come-lately to a pre-existing one. The Q are well aware of what happens to 2nd fiddles when the outsiders are gone...
Secondly,...we want the Q to feel like we are the ringleader, not Sirius. We want them to come to US for approval, not Sirius. We undermine ourselves by talking about getting Sirius approval.
Of course the opposite is true with Sirius... we want them to feel respected as an alliance founding partner, and feel like they have veto power over The Q entering the alliance. But we don't have to tell the Q that.
2. I think it is good to describe the alliance in terms of "tops and bottoms" when talking to Sirius but not when addressing the Q. Northern and Southern is better, but even better, would be avoiding such distinctions entirely, when addressing the Q.
The reason again, is because we don't want the Q to feel like we think of them as being part of some separate faction within the alliance. We want them to feel like they have just as good a chance ending up our ally in the final 4 or 3 as Sirius. Keeping the Q close to us will serve us well long term. Especially when there are only 4 teams left and we are looking to create a 3 on
Now with Sirius, we again want the opposite, we WANT them to be thinking in terms of the Northern alliance vis-a-vis the Southern one, because this will keep them closest to us, as opposed to the other allies. Better yet, referring to "tops and bottoms" is a not-so-subtle way of hinting that "our" side is the better half of the alliance.
3. Don't tell Quatronia what to tech. Don't even make suggestions. Let Sirius do that. It will be perceived as pushy, overbearing and exploitive. All we need to do is tell them what we already have, and what we are already teching... let them figure out the rest.
Since we are sharing tech anyway, it is almost irrelevant who tech what. We should TAKE tech suggestions, but not GIVE them. This will make us seem like the most agreeable and therefore the most attractive ally.
4. We don't need to mention the alliance within alliance treaty anymore. We already have them on board. Let them draft the terms, and do the leg work on that. We already offered some sample terms. Once we see what they came up with, we can take our time editing, adding, subtracting etc.
1. Take out any reference to us having to wait for Sirius approval for them to be accepted. As far as we are concerned, they are in. If by some miracle, Sirius wants to reject them, then we have a conversation with Sirius and convince them.
I say this, first... because we don't want to make the mistake of letting the Q feel like they are a second fiddle to Sirius. We want the Q to feel like we all entered this alliance together, at basically the same time and therefore we are all Primary partners. This will make them even more confident about their sub-alliance with us, because they will feel like they are a founding party to the alliance, rather than a Johnny-come-lately to a pre-existing one. The Q are well aware of what happens to 2nd fiddles when the outsiders are gone...
Secondly,...we want the Q to feel like we are the ringleader, not Sirius. We want them to come to US for approval, not Sirius. We undermine ourselves by talking about getting Sirius approval.
Of course the opposite is true with Sirius... we want them to feel respected as an alliance founding partner, and feel like they have veto power over The Q entering the alliance. But we don't have to tell the Q that.
2. I think it is good to describe the alliance in terms of "tops and bottoms" when talking to Sirius but not when addressing the Q. Northern and Southern is better, but even better, would be avoiding such distinctions entirely, when addressing the Q.
The reason again, is because we don't want the Q to feel like we think of them as being part of some separate faction within the alliance. We want them to feel like they have just as good a chance ending up our ally in the final 4 or 3 as Sirius. Keeping the Q close to us will serve us well long term. Especially when there are only 4 teams left and we are looking to create a 3 on
Now with Sirius, we again want the opposite, we WANT them to be thinking in terms of the Northern alliance vis-a-vis the Southern one, because this will keep them closest to us, as opposed to the other allies. Better yet, referring to "tops and bottoms" is a not-so-subtle way of hinting that "our" side is the better half of the alliance.
3. Don't tell Quatronia what to tech. Don't even make suggestions. Let Sirius do that. It will be perceived as pushy, overbearing and exploitive. All we need to do is tell them what we already have, and what we are already teching... let them figure out the rest.
Since we are sharing tech anyway, it is almost irrelevant who tech what. We should TAKE tech suggestions, but not GIVE them. This will make us seem like the most agreeable and therefore the most attractive ally.
4. We don't need to mention the alliance within alliance treaty anymore. We already have them on board. Let them draft the terms, and do the leg work on that. We already offered some sample terms. Once we see what they came up with, we can take our time editing, adding, subtracting etc.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
I agree completely with you Sommerswerd. Thank you for pointing those things out.
Every point makes perfect sense and is logically explained.
All of these changes will be made and kept in mind with regard to future correspondences.
With those changes, do you think we could send it out, since Sirius won't object to adding a member?
Every point makes perfect sense and is logically explained.
All of these changes will be made and kept in mind with regard to future correspondences.
With those changes, do you think we could send it out, since Sirius won't object to adding a member?
SilentConfusion
Emperor
New draft, with the changes Sommerswerd mentioned implemented:
SilentConfusion
Emperor
Sent the following with 34 hours left on the timer for T52:
SilentConfusion
Emperor
We can also begin trading with Quatronia now, although we'd want to drop Sirius a note and make sure we let them know. I think Quatronia will get back to us with what techs they have and that they want to trade them. By that time they may have met Team Sirius or may not have, either way we make sure that everyone gets their techs ASAP. Everyone's first trading experience with the Alliance needs to be good. Important to make a good impression on new members lest they be unsure about what they've joined.
SilentConfusion
Emperor
Got the following PM from cav scout:
It might not seem like a big deal, but that action (rejecting) our in-game request for Meditation) is a violation of the ETTT.
Specifically, sections 4.1 and 4.4:
So they don't have to accept the tech we offer... they can pick and choose what they want, and when they want it, but they CAN'T pick and choose what they want to give US, or WHEN they want to give it.
If they want to engage in some futile attempt to try to hide the fact that they are tech trading that's fine, but we are not wasting time doing that. We want all our tech right away.
They say they need to discuss things, but there is nothing to discuss with respect to our tech request. They should tell their turnplayers to accept all tech requests from allies, period. Trades are different, but a naked tech request can not be refused under our treaty.
This is a bad precedent, and we should probably nip this in the bud now, to avoid it becoming an issue later... where every time we are wanting a tech from them they think it is OK to wait multiple turns to discuss when they will give to us. With Meditation, its not a big deal, but I would rather stop this practice before it becomes a problem.
I don't know if a formal letter is warranted, maybe just a PM to Cav scout will suffice, but we can't ignore this or it could potentially get worse. I will log in and request the tech again. Please let them know that they should accept before ending the turn.
Specifically, sections 4.1 and 4.4:
So they don't have to accept the tech we offer... they can pick and choose what they want, and when they want it, but they CAN'T pick and choose what they want to give US, or WHEN they want to give it.
If they want to engage in some futile attempt to try to hide the fact that they are tech trading that's fine, but we are not wasting time doing that. We want all our tech right away.
They say they need to discuss things, but there is nothing to discuss with respect to our tech request. They should tell their turnplayers to accept all tech requests from allies, period. Trades are different, but a naked tech request can not be refused under our treaty.
This is a bad precedent, and we should probably nip this in the bud now, to avoid it becoming an issue later... where every time we are wanting a tech from them they think it is OK to wait multiple turns to discuss when they will give to us. With Meditation, its not a big deal, but I would rather stop this practice before it becomes a problem.
I don't know if a formal letter is warranted, maybe just a PM to Cav scout will suffice, but we can't ignore this or it could potentially get worse. I will log in and request the tech again. Please let them know that they should accept before ending the turn.
damnrunner
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 2,004
Not everyone on the team may be fully read up on the treaty. I think an informal message for now is best.
Quatronia just offered Meditation for all our tech, plus Open Borders. I accepted in-game. So I will leave it to SilCon to decide whether the trade-rejection thing needs to be addressed. Maybe be we wait for it to happen again
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