Embassy to Team Quatronia

Quatronia just offered Meditation for all our tech, plus Open Borders. I accepted in-game. So I will leave it to SilCon to decide whether the trade-rejection thing needs to be addressed. Maybe be we wait for it to happen again:dunno:

I say we let it slide, especially until we have heard back from them regarding getting CDZ to join. Once we have a fixed 4 way alliance I'll feel better about confronting that type of thing. Or until we have met CDZ and can work talk to them ourselves.

I don't like the fact that they hadn't already talked about it, but any other such occurrence cannot be chalked up to undecided policy and needs to be monitored.
 
Offered Alpha to Quatronia in-game. Theyt have not accepted yet, but they have already taken their turn, so they might not notice.

Also, we should tell allies ASAP that we are getting GW, especially Quatronia, because Provolution loves espionage, and now that they have Masonry, they might decide they want it.
 
How about this to Q? If Merlot responds favorably to our communication, then CDZ will have a time limit to join.

Greetings to our Quatronian Allies,

We wanted to ask you for your information and thoughts about CDZ. We need to bring them in soon if we're going to take them. We agree that it would be nice to have them, but if they are already closely allied with Merlot or are just taking too long to respond, then we may have to bring in Merlot or the Mavs.

We wanted to let you know we've been working on the Great Wall, just so you don't waste your hammers attempting it. Again, we believe it is better to be open with our allies to avoid duplication.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,
SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat
 
Sent this to Q at the start of the new turn. I changed the part about "them wasting hammers." That's not a good way to put it. Hopefully this will speed them up with regards to CDZ, and if Merlot responds favorably we can give them a definite time limit on talks with CDZ.

Greetings to our Quatronian Allies,

We wanted to ask you for your information and thoughts about CDZ. We need to bring them in soon if we're going to take them. We agree that it would be nice to have them, but if they are already closely allied with Merlot or are just taking too long to respond, then we may have to bring in Merlot or the Mavs.

We wanted to let you know we've been working on the Great Wall, so that we can avoid duplication of effort. It is good to be open with our Allies to avoid duplication and let us all grow stronger.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely yours,
SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat
 
Cav Scout sent this:

SilCon,

About CDZ- we would like to reveal the ETTT to them to see if we can get them onboard. Are you and Sirius ok with this?

Right now they seem amicable enough. We have a NAP with them and they want to do a trade us Masonry + Iron Working for Alphabet.

-Cav
 
We need to make sure Quatronia knows that they can only trade with them if they join the Alliance and agree to trade with everybody. And agree to not trade with Mavs or Merlot.

The didn't say whether they knew if CDZ already has deals going with Merlot.
 
I agree, no side trading, or trading outside the alliance. Better to keep non alliance members isolated then to help them along with outside trades.

Under NO Circumstances should we give Alpha to CDZ without a treaty in place. The Last thing we need is to hand over Alpha to some outside alliance.

Sirius has already indicated that they like the "tops and bottoms" idea, so I would go ahead and tell the Q to offer the ETTT to CDZ... Quatronia should:

1. Make sure they are not allied with Merlot already first. If they are, then they are out and we go to Mavs (I am logging in now so that we can hopefully, finally, meet Mavs... it has been a busy day today... not much time for civ.... missed a turn in a different pitboss:() Anyway the last thing we need is for us and The Q to be offering different alliance partners the same treaty.:yuck:

2. Make sure that CDZ understands the terms are not negotiable. This does not need to be mentioned when the treaty is offered... just if they try to make changes.

3. Tell Quatronia that it is OK with us if they offer CDZ a 'side alliance' to get them on-board. Such is to be expected, and "We know that their true loyalty is with us". That should make it easier for them to negotiate with CDZ... Plus we know they are going to do that anyway... this will just help speed things along... Maybe:sad:

4. Not make side trades with CDZ
 
Draft to Quatronia:

Do we think Quatronia will send us an "Classified Addendum" or should we work something up to solidify the special bond between us? They seem to be quite slow about things. Not sure that they will get to it. If we can get both them and Sirius thinking we are their special friends, it would put us in a good position. Then CDZ can be the first to go when our Alliance is all that is left and it won't break down into a tops versus bottoms war. We want Q to think that we are their special friends in the Alliance and not CDZ.

Greetings to the Continuum,

This message is in reply to the Private Message we received from Cav Scout.

We think that you can go ahead and offer the ETTT to CDZ. Before offering the ETTT to CDZ it is important to know if they are already allied with Merlot. If they are already allied with Merlot then we will have to ask the Mavericks to join us. The symmetrical 4-way alliance would be ideal, but any 4-way alliance is better than a 3 versus 3 situation.

We think at this stage with three teams already in it, we need to make sure that CDZ knows that the treaty is not negotiable. This does not need to be told to them when it is offered, only if they try to make changes.

We also understand that you might have to make a side alliance with CDZ to get them on board. We are OK with this because we know that our teams true loyalty is to each other. We look forward to completing some agreements between our two civs to increase the security of both of our civilizations.

Unless CDZ can be brought into the alliance and agrees to all the terms of the ETTT, we should not trade Alphabet to them. In the case of Masonry, we can trade that to you if we haven't already. If CDZ joins us they can provide us with Iron Working and whatever else they may have and only then will they enjoy the benefits of being a member of this Trading Alliance.

We hope that you are able to determine whether or not they are already allied with Merlot and that, if not, you can get them to join our Alliance. The sooner this can be accomplished the better for everyone in our Alliance.

We hope to hear the news from you shortly.

Sincerely yours,
SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat
 
I like the letter. I would change the following things:

1. Change "We think that you can go ahead and offer the ETTT to CDZ" to... "Go ahead and offer the ETTT to CDZ"

2. Add "We have met The Mavericks this turn, and we would like to offer the ETTT to them before the end of next turn, especially since they have more to offer in terms of tech. Please convey the message to CDZ that they have limited time to decide whether to enter the alliance."

3. Dont mention Masonry. Quaronia already has Masonry from us.

Remember that we don't need to worry about drafting the separate alliance with the Q. Better for them to assume that it is in effect without any actual agreement. That will give us more flexibility. Dont worry, they will bring it up when they need it. As long as we keep aluding to it without actually drafting it, that should pacify them. If it does not, then let them draft an agreement. Whatever you do, dont try to force something on them. It will offend cavscout, and sour our relations. Better to just wait patiently on them to offer the side alliance treaty.
 
New draft:

Greetings to the Continuum,

This message is in reply to the Private Message we received from Cav Scout.

Go ahead and offer the ETTT to CDZ. Before offering the ETTT to CDZ it is important to know if they are already allied with Merlot. If they are already allied with Merlot then we will have to ask the Mavericks to join us. The symmetrical 4-way alliance would be ideal, but any 4-way alliance is better than a 3 versus 3 situation.

At this stage with three teams already in it, we need to make sure that CDZ knows that the treaty is not negotiable. This does not need to be told to them when it is offered, only if they try to make changes.

We understand that you might have to make a side alliance with CDZ to get them on board. We are OK with this because we know that our teams true loyalty is to each other. We look forward to completing some agreements between our two civs to increase the security of both of our civilizations.

Unless CDZ can be brought into the alliance and agrees to all the terms of the ETTT, we should not trade Alphabet to them. If CDZ joins us they can provide us with Iron Working and whatever else they may have and only then will they enjoy the benefits of being a member of this Trading Alliance.

We hope that you are able to determine whether or not they are already allied with Merlot and that, if not, you can get them to join our Alliance. The sooner we can get a fourth member the better for everyone in our Alliance.

We have met The Mavericks this turn, and we would like to offer the ETTT to them before the end of next turn if we don't have a fourth member by then, especially since they have more to offer the Alliance in terms of tech. Please convey the message to CDZ that they have limited time to decide whether to enter the alliance.

We hope to hear the news from you shortly.

Sincerely yours,
SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat
 
Final draft sent to Quatronia, so they can begin talking to CDZ. Will send out Mavs greeting a little later.

Greetings to the Continuum,

This message is in reply to the Private Message we received from Cav Scout.

Go ahead and offer the ETTT to CDZ. Before offering the ETTT to CDZ it is important to know if they are already allied with Merlot. If they are already allied with Merlot then we will have to ask the Mavericks to join us. The symmetrical 4-way alliance would be ideal, but any 4-way alliance is better than a 3 versus 3 situation.

At this stage with three teams already in it, we need to make sure that CDZ knows that the treaty is not negotiable. This does not need to be told to them when it is offered, only if they try to make changes.

We understand that you might have to make a side alliance with CDZ to get them on board. We are OK with this because we know that our teams true loyalty is to each other. We look forward to completing some agreements between our two civs to increase the security of both of our civilizations.

Unless CDZ can be brought into the alliance and agrees to all the terms of the ETTT, we should not trade Alphabet to them. If CDZ joins us they can provide us with Iron Working and whatever else they may have and only then will they enjoy the benefits of being a member of this Trading Alliance.

We hope that you are able to determine whether or not they are already allied with Merlot and that, if they are not already allied, you can get them to join our Alliance. The sooner we can get a fourth member the better for everyone in our Alliance.

We have met The Mavericks this turn, and we would like to offer the ETTT to them before the end of next turn if we don't have a fourth member by then, especially since they have more to offer the Alliance in terms of tech. Please convey the message to CDZ that they have limited time to decide whether to enter the alliance.

We hope to hear the news from you shortly.

Sincerely yours,
SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat
 
Once we have a fourth member and finally meet CDZ, I won't care as much that Quatronia is so slow. They're undoubtedly trying to get things worked out between themselves and CDZ in addition to getting them to join, which I don't mind, so long as they move with a bit more speed or at least let us know what is taking so long.

Out of all the teams CDZ is the one that I would think would dislike slow responses the most. I wonder if this is causing hesitancy on their part. I wish we had met them already. If CDZ sent out a work boat in either direction we will meet it soon.
 
It appears from the PMs that I got from obsolete (posted in the Mavericks Embassy Thread) that Quatronia has been either:

1. Trying to form an alliance with the Mavs prior to meeting us/joining the ETTT
2. Trying to bring the Mavs into the ETTT, but as part-and-parcel of some sort of side deal
3. Stringing the Mavericks along.

Number 3 is certainly a strong possibility, at least with the players on the team that I know. Both cavscout and Provolution are big fans of using string-along tactics. Also, these choices are not mutually exclusive, for example, they could have done Number 1 in the past and now be doing number 2 or 3.

Number 1 certainly would make sense since they met Mavs first, and Provolution especially would be a big fan of doing something like number 2.
 
Message from Quatronia saying they are confused why we are in such a hurry.

Dear Amazons,

We are a little confused by your last message. You say you would prefer to have CDZ in the ETTT but you don't seem to be willing to give them enough time to do so. We understand and agree with the desire the get the fourth member locked in as soon as possible. But lets not be too hasty, this is a demo game afterall. ;) Teams need time to deliberate things. We think CDZ should be given more than 48 hours during the workweek to make their decision. Sure, if it become apparent they are stalling then we just walk away and make an offer to the Mavs.

Right now the Mavericks only have contact with you and us. CDZ hasn't sent a workboat towards them and Merlot is just barely into CDZ waters with their workboat. It will be a long time before the Merlot boat can reach them (>10 turns) and we are considering sinking it when it enters our waters. So we don't see the rush to invite the Mavs right away when there is still time to see if CDZ works out.
Sincerely,

Cav Scout
Team Quatronia
 
So that sounds like Quatronia has given the offer to CDZ already and are waiting for them.

Also interesting is that CDZ sent no work boats in Quatronia's direction, because they didn't send one in our direction. It's possible they're exploring the center. Also the Mavs probably haven't sent a work boat out yet because they would have met CDZ already. And Merlot sent one work boat out late in the other direction and are just entering CDZ waters.

Guess only Quatronia realizes the power of work boats. Right now the two of us can communicate with everyone and some like the Mavs can only talk to Q and us. That's a huge limiting factor.

We may want to send a message smoothing their ruffled feathers since it seems they think we are being too hasty and pushy. I will defer to Sommerswerd's judgement regarding Cav Scout and Provo, but from what I've heard I think they're likely to take what they perceive as bad manners badly. If they perceive us as too pushy, we're making a mistake.
 
Maybe a message explaining why we feel speed is of the essence and that we don't mean to be pushy.
 
If you read the comments by the CDZ team-members during the planning stages of the game, you can infer that it is probably not CDZ's indecision or slowness that is holding up the treaty. It is Quatronia. CDZ scoffs at Democracy, scoffs at polling, and scoffs at bureaucracy in general. They are perfectly capable of giving Quatronia a yes or no answer by the end of this turn. They have been 1st or 2nd team to act almost every turn since the game started. They are decisive, and they probably don't need anymore time to discuss anything. It is Quatronia who needs the time... Time to convince CDZ to sign a side deal.

What THEY want, is to get CDZ to join the ETTT, AND agree to a side alliance with CDZ, all in one shot... What WE want, is for CDZ to sign the ETTT now, and for the Q and CDZ to continue along in endless side treaty negotiations that never come to fruition. That way the Q wll have to fall back on us as their best buddy, not CDZ.

We SHOULD NOT give Quatronia additional time to arrange a side deal with CDZ. Let them do that AFTER the ETTT is signed. The lack of pressure will make their negotiations tougher, and may ultimately lead to the failure of their side deal... which is exactly what WE want. As long as the Q can hold the ETTT over CDZ's head as a carrot, they have alot of leverage to set up some sweet side deal with CDZ, that may ultimately end up biting us in the end.

AND we don't need to apologize to them. IMO, cavscout will interpret that as weakness, and Provolution will take it as a license to dilly-dally and engage in endless negotiation over minor details.

They are NOT offended by our last message. They say they are "confused" and they "don't want to be hasty." So their feathers are not ruffled from us being pushy, rather, they don't feel the same sense of urgency that we do, and they want to know why we think the situation is so urgent...

In truth, they know why we feel the situation is urgent and they do not. It is because we dont want CDZ or Merlot to meet the Mavericks. That would be a disaster, because it will push them into a 3-way alliance against us. The reason the Q are not worried about it, is because they know where Merlots boat is, and presumably, that CDZ does not have one. Also, they are toying with the idea of sinking them to prevent contact. We should encourage this, for the reasons I have mentioned before.

This is the perfect opportunity to broach the subject of workboat sinking, because Quatronia brought it up. We should tell the Q that we were indeed concerned that Mavs would meet Merlot or CDZ and for an opposing alliance, and that was the reason for our sense of urgency. However, if they are giving their firm commitment to sink any CDZ or Merlot workboats prior to them making contact with Mavs, then we are happy to wait for them to seal the agreement of CDZ. On the other hand, if they can not give that commitment, then we will offer the ETTT to Merlot (who would almost certainly sign immediately) or Mavs, at the end of this (or next) turn. One problem is, that it is going to take a pretty good explanation from the Q to CDZ why they sunk their workboat if they still expect them to join the alliance after.

This is what I think should be conveyed in our response to Quatronia.
 
Here's a draft addressing the reason for our sense of urgency and saying if they can assure us that the Mavs won't be meeting CDZ or Merlot (sinking boats if necessary), they can take more time getting them to come aboard.

I am a little concerned with this phrase:
If, however, you can't give us that commitment, we will send the ETTT to the Mavs or Merlot.
We can offer it to them like we said, but they have to agree or it means nothing. Is it a threat if they can just veto it. I guess we could remove them from the Alliance if they vetoed, but are they really considering that a threat?

We could leave that out and be an implied threat by meaning "we won't give them time." What do you think?

Greetings to The Continuum,

we hope to clear up any confusion you may have about our sense of urgency.

We most certainly would prefer to have CDZ in our Alliance than either the Mavericks or Merlot. We were concerned, however, that the Mavericks would meet either Merlot or CDZ and be able to form an opposing alliance and that is why we felt a sense of urgency. If you can assure us that the Mavericks will not meet CDZ or Merlot, sinking any work boats if necessary to keep this from happening, then we are happy to give you the time you need to convince CDZ and seal the agreement. If, however, you can't give us that commitment, we will send the ETTT to the Mavs or Merlot.

We have learned that the canals leading to the center of the map do not go all of the way through but dead-end in the middle. This would suggest that any CDZ, Merlot, or Mav work boats would have to pass by you to meet each other. Have you explored the canals at all? From your message it seems that Merlot's work boat is still far from meeting the Mavericks. Have you seen a CDZ work boat? Neither Merlot nor CDZ has sent a work boat in our direction. If we can track these work boats and sink them if necessary, that can buy you more time to get CDZ aboard, although we will all feel better when we have brought our fourth member signed up. The sooner we can get them on board the sooner we can start coordinating our tech output.

Just a question about your tech path... What are you currently researching? We will have Priesthood in 2 turns and Sirius is finishing up Math.

Sincerely yours,
SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat
 
Sent to Quatronia:

Greetings to The Continuum,

we hope to clear up any confusion you may have about our sense of urgency.

We most certainly would prefer to have CDZ in our Alliance than either the Mavericks or Merlot. We were concerned, however, that the Mavericks would meet either Merlot or CDZ and be able to form an opposing alliance and that is why we felt a sense of urgency. If you can assure us that the Mavericks will not meet CDZ or Merlot, sinking whatever boats necessary to keep this from happening, then we are happy to give you the time you need to convince CDZ and seal the agreement. If, however, you can't give us that commitment, we feel that we will have to settle for any fourth member instead of waiting to hopefully get the preferred fourth member.

We have learned that the canals leading to the center of the map do not go all of the way through but dead-end in the middle. This would suggest that any CDZ, Merlot, or Mav work boats would have to pass by you to meet each other. Have you explored the canals at all? From your message it seems that Merlot's work boat is still far from meeting the Mavericks. Have you seen a CDZ work boat? Neither Merlot nor CDZ has sent a work boat in our direction. If we can track these work boats and sink them if necessary, that can buy you more time to get CDZ aboard, although we will all feel better when we have brought our fourth member signed up. The sooner we can get them on board the sooner we can start coordinating our tech output.

Just a question about your tech path... What are you currently researching? We will have Priesthood in 2 turns and Sirius is finishing up Math.

Sincerely yours,
SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat
 
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