Embassy to Team Sirius

[Sommerswerd]

EDIT I need to re-do the dotmap and re-post.

Here is what I came up with:

3 cities for us on Anjennida and 5 potential cities for them. The trade-off is that their cities have more overlap, but they are free to build as many or as few as they would like. The "S"s on the map are only suggestions. They can build wherever the want and we can build wherever we want, as long as the BFCs do not cross the Gold line. That line represents the line between their land and ours. This way, there is no cultural conflict at all.

In this configuration, we lose the two clam on our side in exchange for two clam on their side. Also, they get a Horse, which they probably really want badly. Finally, they lose another Clam on their side (in the sense that it is outside the BFC), but of course, they are getting Marble AND Whale.

I also indicated where they could build on Bode and still respect the dividing line.

So now we have three maps to send them.
1. The straight dividing lines, red for them, yellow for us
2. Damnrunners dotmap
3. Sommers Dotmap

 

[damnrunner]

Don't cities have to be more than 2 tiles apart? The fact that the map has a few unused tiles is not ideal, but if it reduces conflict so be it.

I don't mind some BFC culture overlap as they can always expand out past the BFC and have culture overlap anyway. We should talk to them on occasion about how to manage this. It looks like we will have a monument in each city which will mostly offset their free culture. I doubt they are wasting hammers on monuments as they would be of little use for them.

Any other suggestions, or shoudl we send these three proposals. We should also include a note about how we believe a N-S rather than a E-W dividing is better.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Arrgggg... you're right. On second glance, one of the city locations I have is too close to Carib, which throws everything else off. Forget the prior dotmap... back to the drawing board.

 

[damnrunner]

The map is really impossible.

 

[Sommerswerd]

OK here are two dotmaps. One is a simple no-settle line (In Red). Sirius would have to settle above it, and we would have to settle below it. Other than that, its just first come first served. This Map gives Sirius 40 land tiles (including 11 desert tiles), but of course they get the only Whale and the only Marble. AMAZON gets 43 land tiles, including 3 desert tiles on the Southern tip. AMAZON gets both elephants, which would obviously be shared with Sirius. There are 7 land tiles on the line itself including the Western Horse, which would be up for grabs.

Spoiler :

The Second dotmap is a No-Conflict Line, which means that Sirius Must settle Above the Orange line and AMAZON must settle below the Blue Line, but no team can found a city in a place where any tiles of the BFC would go over the line. The difference is that Sirius is guranteed the Horse and we are guaranteed the two Southwestern Clams. On this Map, we get 43 land tiles (including 3 desert) and Sirius gets 47 land tiles including 11 desert.

Spoiler :

Remember that in addition to getting a Monopoly on Whale and Marble, Sirius' cosatal tile are actually just as good if not better than improved land tiles. this is because with a dike(UB) and a lighthouse, plus their FIN trait, every coastal tile = 2, 3 and 1. That's easily just as good as any improved land tile. So really, the Coastal tiles should count as land tiles for Sirius.

I guess now we can tell Sirius that their old suggested dotmap is obsolete, because of the city we planned before they sent it to us, and that we are sending them three dotmaps to choose from.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It was really past time to contribute to the settlement discussion with Sirius, so I sent this out, which is basically a presentation of the tree dotmaps we designed.

I also warn them about barbs in the area, and put some pressure on them to DoW the Mavericks, to test out CDZ's claim that they have a permanent NAP with Mavericks. If they DoW the Mavs, then we know the claim that they had a NAP was just more M&M bs, but if they stall or obfuscate, or make excuses, then we know that they probably do have a NAP with the Mavs.

Greetings Sirian Allies,

We hope all is well with the Sirius Business, we would first like to congradulate our friends on the recent subjucation of the Anjennidan savages at Carib. Welcome to Anjennida, and we look forward to connecting our cities to the benefit of our mutual defense. Towards that end, and in anticipation of your arrival, we have already extended a road NW from Myrine, our northernmost city towards Carib. As we have already informed you, there are native Axemen afoot, one of which our brave Hippolyte-a has already dispatched. Be warned that our Toxaris, Susie has encountred a native Spearman in the southern, desert near the center of Star-landmass.

Additionally, we thought it prudent to inform you of two developments with the M&M enemies. First, as anticipated, Toxaris Susie has reported seeing a Maverick chariot headed for Marthaton. This chariot will be blocked by Suisie, and the city she will be defending, however, we are concerned that this chariot is a forward scout for a larger force. This suspicion is bolstered by our recent communications with the Continuum, who are reporting that the Mavericks are offering to capture Kleptocracy cities for them. This would mean that the Mavericks are assembling a military force to threaten the ETTT.

This brings up another issue. The Kleptocracy has implied that their communications with the Mavericks have revealed a secret, permanent treaty of non-aggression between the Sirians and the Mavericks. We dismissed this hearsay as the feeble attempts of the M&Ms to smear chocolate stains all over the cohesion of our alliance, by sowing seeds of distrust, which is why we did not mention it to you. However, now that it seems clear that the Mavericks are trying to reinforce Merlot, we feel the need to call upon our allies to place some pressure on the Mavericks to reduce their freedom to reinforce Merlot. Obviously an all out attack on their citeis would accomplish this, but a simple Declaration of War against the Mavericks would make them think twice about sending their units away from their own cities. Therefore, a mere Declaration of War on the Mavericks would assist us a great deal. We hope that our Sirian friends will help us in this regard.

The recent troubles between The Kleptocracy and the Continuum is proof that the Sirian-AMAZON method has been superior, and also demonstrates the futility of atempting to share the landmasses on East-West lines. We continue to work on resolving the situation between the two parties, but as you suggest, we are not rushing the matter, but attempting to make it as methodical, and deliberate as possible, thus the extremely lengthy message on the subject to all the allies. Now that Quatronia has included you publicly, you can openly endorse our recommendations. Please condsider the possibility of doing so at your convenience.

On to the issue of Anjennida. We greatly appreciate your last dotmap, but as you are aware, our newest city makes that dotmap obsolete. Happily we have enclosed three possible solutions for dividing Anjennida, each very different in approach. We hope that you will select one of these approaches, as we are comfotable with all three. Maps for all three approaches are enclosed.

One map is a simple no-settle line (In Red). Sirius would settle above the line, and The AMAZON would have to settle below it. Other than that, its just first come first served, which is obviously slightly more competitive. This Map gives Sirius 40 land tiles (including 11 desert tiles), but of course the Sirius Business gets the only Whale and the only Marble in Anjennida. The AMAZON gets 43 land tiles, including 3 desert tiles on the Southern tip. The AMAZON gets both elephants, which would obviously be shared with Sirius. There are 7 land tiles on the line itself including the Western Horse, which would be subject to cultural conflict
.
The Second approach is a No-Conflict Line, which means that Sirius would settle Above the Orange line and The AMAZON would settle below the Blue Line, but no team could found a city in a place where any tiles of the city's BFC would go over the line. Both teams are free to settle where they wish, within these guidelines, which means that no cities would overlap BFCs. The difference with this approach is that Sirius is guaranteed the Horse and The AMAZON is guaranteed the two Southwestern Clams. On this Map, The AMAZON get 43 land tiles (including 3 desert) and Sirius gets 47 land tiles including 11 desert.

The final approach is a dotmap, which pre determines city locations. It provides the following tile distributions. Sirus receives, 1 desert oasis, 1 marble hill, 3 Flood Plain, 21 grass (17 river, 6 forest), 2 bananas, 6 coast, 1 ocean, 2 clams, 2 coast (non-coastal city), 1 clam (non-coastal city). Amazon gets, 24 grass (1 forest, 15 jungle, 2 river), 2 jungle elephants, 1 jungle banana, lake, 11 coast, 5 clams. The shared tiles are Sirius:
7 grass, 2 grass jungle 1 grass hill horse and 1 coast.

Remember that under all three approaches, in addition to receiving the only Whale and Marble, Sirius' cosatal tiles are actually just as good if not better than improved land tiles. this is because with a dike(UB) and a lighthouse, plus your FIN trait, every coastal tile will give 2, 3 and 1, which is comparable to an improved land tile.

We look forward to hearing from our friends,

Special Envoy nabaxo on behalf of The AMAZON

 

[damnrunner]

Should we ask them if they are going for the Circumnavigation benefit? I think we need ot focus our naval efforts on Merlot, but I would rather help Sirius get the benefit than allow CDZ to get even faster ships.

 

[nabaxo]

It looks like from the mini-map that the whole map is enclosed in ice.

 

[Sommerswerd]

We shouldn't get involved in the circumnavigation discussion... it will just unecessarly irritate whoever we don't side with. And there's no benefit for us

 

[damnrunner]

We can pick a winner by tacking East with a Caravel a bit and then map trading. Hopefully we are locked in ice though. Would be a more balanced map I think.

 

[nabaxo]

Edit: Wrong thread.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It is worth noting that while CDZ DoWed Merlot as soon as we asked them to, Sirius still has not DoWed Mavericks.

Also I sent this PM to Sirius, because of an important typo in the last letter to them:

Did you recieve our last gmail?
There is a typo The last sentence in the 2nd to last paragraph says "The shared tiles are Sirius:7 grass, 2 grass jungle 1 grass hill horse and 1 coast." It should say "The shared tiles are: 7 grass, 2 grass jungle 1 grass hill horse and 1 coast." So the word "Sirius" is a typo. Sorry for any confusion this caused.

Also, we understand if you need more time to discuss the dotmaps, but we are still anxiously waiting to hear from you regarding a DoW on Mavericks, as well as the rumor of the secret treaty.

Take care,

Sommerswerd of The AMAZON

 

[Sommerswerd]

Reply PM from Trystero... denying any treaty with Mavs.

Dear Sommerswerd,

Our apologies. We did indeed receive your last letter, but various team members (including our diplomat Irgy) have been away recently. We will send you a proper response shortly, however, I will address the rumor issue now to allay your concerns.

We have no secret treaty with Mavericks. Our only diplomatic interactions with them were our previous Open Borders agreement. We would not jeopardize our relations with you (or the rest of the ETTA), and would have nothing to gain from such a relationship with such a backwards people.

They have contacted us, and tried to lure us into such a trap by offering to gift their cities to us in the event of war with Quatronia. We are not so naive as to be that easily duped, and we have ignored this feeble attempt to sow discord among us.

As I said, we will get back to you shortly about the dotmaps and war plans.

Best regards,

Trystero, Sirian diplomat

 

[damnrunner]

Our Amazonian diplomatic corps kicks some ass.

 

[2metraninja]

What bothers me is that they still dont say a word for declaring a war on our enemies. And at the end of the message they elegantly switch the subject to the dotmap, which have nothing to do with our request they to DoW.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sent this PM to Sirius, as the SAP requires us to share Espy info. Now that they know we have tech visibility, they can ask us when they need info, I don't think we need to volunteer a bunch of espy updates to them. If they want info they can just ask for it.

Letting you know as per the SAP treaty of friendship, that we can now see the tech choices of our mutual enemies, M&M.

Mavs are teching Optics, and Merlot are after Civil Service. Both appear to be building gold at present.

 

[Sommerswerd]

What bothers me is that they still dont say a word for declaring a war on our enemies. And at the end of the message they elegantly switch the subject to the dotmap, which have nothing to do with our request they to DoW.

Yea I noticed that too... and they STILL havent responded to our dotmap We gave them 3 choices for heavens sake

At any rate... Sirius has finally given us what we were waiting for... not so much because we asked for it mind you, but AFAICT, when CDZ DoWed Merlot, Merlot DoWed Sirius in retaliation, so Sirius is DoWing Mavs as retaliation for that whatever... as long as we all get focused on killing the M&Ms instead of land-grabbing against each other.

Here is the PM from Sirius:

Thanks for the information. As you may be aware, Merlot has made a declaration of war against us, and we in turn have declared war against Mavericks. We will contact you shortly regarding these matters. We fully intend to keep you updated on the activity of M&M units in our vicinity. As of this turn only a Mavericks work boat is near our territories, between Bode and Anjennida.

 

[Sommerswerd]

This was in our Gmail box from Sirius:

Greetings Amazons.

First a sincere apology for the long delay in sending this correspondance. I was indeed away for what is a long-weekend where I live, and my wife and I have both been taken down with a horrible flu ever since we got back.

As you can see, events with Mavericks have moved along on their own course. We had finally resolved to declare war on them, despite our somewhat struggling military, when this issue of their retirement from the game came up. We probably need to wait to see what the gods (admins) decide on that one before discussing it much further.

The rest of this correspondance is a discussion of the settling agreement, which I wrote before I went away for the weekend, but held off sending it waiting for a decision on the Mavericks issue. I wish I'd sent it then a week ago now, and again my apologies for the delay.

Anjennida City Plan
We were actually a little upset at first to see that you had settled somewhere different to our proposal before actually replying to our proposal, but examining the situation in detail we're not bothered by it. The location is one which is, under all schemes, considered your territory. The shift in location 1N of our proposal loses access to the grassland that is currently 2SW of that city, in exchange for tiles to the north which are all overlapped with other cities. So on the whole we don't consider it quite as good a location for the city, but the difference is small and entirely your concern.

We are, for the record, not at all in agreement that a 2F1H3C coastal tile is as good as, for example, the potential of a 2F1H8C grassland cottage site, nor a 2F4H grassland workshop, nor even simply a 4F grassland farm under Biology (which comes at a similar time to our Dike).

As far as the alternative methods of agreement, on the whole, we are much more in favour of a dotmap as an approach, as it has two advantages:
* It ensures an efficient settling pattern. A no-settle line will lead to cities settled aggressively close to the line in order to claim territory, resulting in inefficient settling locations. A no-conflict line will as good as guarantee that there will be a number of tiles unworked as it is impossible to place city BFCs on every tile on one side of the line without crossing over it in places.
* It makes it entirely clear who is getting what, avoiding the potential for either disputes or simply an unfair deal for one side.

The biggest downside of a dotmap is that it is more work and a more complicated agreement, but with only three or four cities each involved here we don't think it is too much work.

We will therefore primarily address the dotmap you have sent us. We have a number of issues with it, most of which are, probably unsurprisingly, dealt with by the dotmap we sent previously.

1. Both dotmaps include a northeastern city in an identical location, and a southwestern city in a similar location (our proposed location being one south of yours). However, the ownership of these two cities is swapped. The reason we think it is better for us to own the southwestern city is that the two clams it has access to are in the BFC of a planned city on Bode. We are not keen to complicate the discussion by including agreements on where we settle on Bode, and the Bode city itself is particularly good production location which we would be reluctant to move. Therefore if we own this southwestern city rather than the northeastern city there will be substantially less cultural conflict in total, and it will be restricted to Anjennida itself. In particular it will save our teams culture fighting over the southwestern clams, and give you the northwesterns clam to your self.

2. The location of the western horse city in your proposed dotmap is a terrible city location. It is one off the coast (wasting a seafood resource in the process), non-riverside, and settled on top of a productive resource, which also happens to be the only otherwise-available production tile. I do conceed that as a dotmap location it does cover a desirable set of tiles, however we think this does not make up for the weakness of the city location itself.

3. Our proposal squeezes in an entire extra city. This city admittedly does not claim a large number of new tiles, but it does claim enough to justify its existence, and many of the tiles it claims would otherwise effectively be lost under alternative proposals. The cities which move away from the centre under our proposal to make room for it partly make up for the lost central tiles with other tiles, and the end result is that every worthwhile tile on the penisula is worked. It's also a city under your control, so it must surely be a good deal for you anyway.

On the whole, we're not stuck on our own proposal for its own sake, but would like you to consider the reasons we've given behind the differences on their own merits.

All the best,
Irgy, on behalf of Team Sirius

The main purpose of the letter seems to be to reject all three of our dotmap proposals and argue that we should accept the one they sent previously. So I guess no progress has been made on that front...

They also spend a little time complaining that we offended them by settling Euxine... but this just seems like an attempt to put us on the defensive so that we accept their dotmap. I would recommend we just ignore that complaint.

They also deny that a coastal tile in their hands is as good as a grassland tile... they are saying that a 4 grassland (with Biology) is better than a 1,2,3 coast.

Lastly, apparently, they never actually declared War on the Mavericks. They claim they were 'fixin' to declare War, but then Mavs quit, so now they want to wait for an administrative decision on what will happen to the Mavs before declaring war on them I dont really see what one thing has to do with the other TBH, just sounds like stalling to me but we will see...

They seem pretty commited ideologically to the East-West division, so for now I would say it might be best to just forget about Anjennida fo a while and focus on Marthaton. We might even want to just ask them to agree to mutually postpone settlement of Anjennida until after we eat all the M&Ms

 

[nabaxo]

Actually, they did declare war on Mavericks and Merlot counter-declared.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Coming back to this issue (dividing Anjennida)... what about testing Sirius's proposal to us by basically offering the reverse to them? Let me explain...

Sirius has rejected the North-South division concept, and is insisting on a division which essentially divides the jungle evenly between us, but then gives them the entire desert spire as a bonus. When we pointed out that coastal tiles are just as valuable to them as grassland are to us, they rejected this premise, basically maintaining that the spire is worthless, and should not be included in the calculation.

What I am thinking is that we should tell them that we will take the spire, including the barb city they captured (Carib), and agree not to build anymore cities in the jungles of Anjennida. Any additional cities we build will be coastal, and North of Myrine, and East of Carib (so basically, in the desert Spire) They in turn, will be free to build as many cities, anywhere else they want on Anjennida, as long as it is West of Myrine and South of Carib.

So what we are offering them, is essentially what they are offering us, ie, we take the spire and the coast on our side, and they get the rest, ie the "meaty" part of the jungle/grassland. If it was so "generous" an offer to us, then they would be hard pressed to refuse when we offer them the same right?. Of course we can include some kind of accomodation for the Great Library if they still want it,( ie gift them Marble), and we can also compensate them for Carib (with a settler, or Gold, etc.).

I'll send a proposal along these lines in a few days if no one objects.