Embassy to Team Sirius

[Sommerswerd]

OK, in light of nabaxo's comment, this is a draft of what will be sent to Sirius. If anyone has comments, I definitely want to hear them. Just remember that the number of years that pass per-turn changes in 1000 AD from 20 to 10 and then again in 1500 AD from 10 to 5. (See this link for details: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=202516) So that means that a NAP until 1500 AD will mean 50 turns of NAP.

Greetings to Our Friends and Allies of the Sirius Business:

We are happy to hear that our friends are willing to extend our special relationship, formalized in the SAP. Although our treaty is not actually expiring (as it continues indefinitely until canceled), the period where cancelation is not permitted ends soon. We wish to extend this period as do you. However, our Goddesses prefer a slightly simpler method of doing so.

Here are the relevant sections of the treaty for reference:

Spoiler :

Section 2. Pact Duration and Cancellation Terms

2.1. The pact continues indefinitely until it is canceled.

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled until 1000AD.

...

Section 3. Non Aggression

3.1. Both members agree not to attack each other at any time while this pact is in effect.

...

3.4. If the pact is canceled because there are no non-member teams left in the game (Section 2.3) a Non-Aggression Pact will go into effect that will last for 10 turns after the last non-member team is eliminated.

We appreciate and agree with the spirit of your suggestions for the extension of the Non Aggression Pact, however, the Zenobians wish to avoid overly complex redoundancies in our agreements because complexities often offend the Goddesses. Our Goddesses do not understand why an extended Non-Aggression clause is necessary on a base Non-Aggression period... "Why not just make the base period longer?" is what they say to us...

Therefore, to appease our Goddesses, we invite the Sirians to decide which type of NAP we will have to augment our larger treaty. We can add set a term of years to our NAP, giving us occasion, many years from now, to revisit our treaty, as we are doing now. On the other hand, we can instead adopt a standing obligation to give prior turns notice of cancelation. We would enjoy either type of NAP equally, so it is up to the wise Sirians to choose which best suits them.

Accordingly, and under Section 10.2 of the SAP:

Spoiler :

Section 10. Amendments

10.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by either member.

10.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon agreement of both members.

We submit the following proposed amendments to section 2.2 of the SAP and request that our friends in the Sirian Business choose the one that suits them best. The one that Sirius chooses will immediately replace the current Section 2.2, and thus become part of the SAP treaty.

Here are our proposed amendments for Sirius to choose from:

Choice 1:

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled until 1500AD.

or

Choice 2:

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled except with 10 turns prior written notice via team gmail and PM to the most recent turnplayer.

We look forward to the Sirians decision. May our mighty Alliance continue to dominate Starland and beyond.

nabaxo, Special Envoy to Sirius

Thoughts?

 

[2metraninja]

Very good argumentation.

The only thing that bothers me is if they choose

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled except with 10 turns prior written notice via team gmail and PM to the most recent turnplayer.

It may means that after 10 turns we can be in war.

But I guess this is a kind way to tell them to choose the 1500 AD option.

Maybe a line like: "We are sure we dont need such 10-turns cooldown period, as when the 1500 closes, we will be discussing our future cooperation again."

May our mighty Alliance continue to dominate Starland and beyond.

This final touch-up I liked much. It looks like a formal, but it hints Sirius and give them a food for thoughts.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The only thing that bothers me is if they choose ... It may means that after 10 turns we can be in war.

Maybe a line like: "We are sure we dont need such 10-turns cooldown period, as when the 1500 closes, we will be discussing our future cooperation again."

The reason I put "10 turns" is because that was their words, plus last time they took the15-turn option, which we don't want to happen again. TBH, I hope they do pick the 10 turn option. There is no way they will be finished with Mavs by 10 turns after 1000 AD, but we hopefully will be closer to defeating Merlot. Plus I doubt that they will have rebuilt their Army by then. The 10 turn option would allow us to pick and choose when we want to attack them... we could attack them as soon as Merlot is dead if we want, much sooner than in 50 turns.

My guess is they go for the longer period of peace... unless they are just so desperate to have prior notice of attack that they would rather get attacked in 20 turns from now with notice, than in 50 turns without notice. They are better off with 50 turns guaranteed peace because we will likely want to extend again anyway.

I added your suggested line. Here is the new draft:

Spoiler :

Greetings to Our Friends and Allies of the Sirius Business:

We are happy to hear that our friends are willing to extend our special relationship, formalized in the SAP. Although our treaty is not actually expiring (as it continues indefinitely until canceled), the period where cancelation is not permitted ends soon. We wish to extend this period as do you. However, our Goddesses prefer a slightly simpler method of doing so.

Here are the relevant sections of the treaty for reference:

Spoiler :

Section 2. Pact Duration and Cancellation Terms

2.1. The pact continues indefinitely until it is canceled.

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled until 1000AD.

...

Section 3. Non Aggression

3.1. Both members agree not to attack each other at any time while this pact is in effect.

...

3.4. If the pact is canceled because there are no non-member teams left in the game (Section 2.3) a Non-Aggression Pact will go into effect that will last for 10 turns after the last non-member team is eliminated.

We appreciate and agree with the spirit of your suggestions for the extension of the Non Aggression Pact, however, the Zenobians wish to avoid overly complex redoundancies in our agreements because complexities often offend the Goddesses. Our Goddesses do not understand why an extended Non-Aggression clause is necessary on a base Non-Aggression period... "Why not just make the base period longer?" is what they say to us... The Goddesses also say "We don't need an additional 10 turn cooldown period anyway, because approaching 1500 AD we will be discussing another extension again."

Therefore, to appease our Goddesses, we invite the Sirians to decide which type of NAP we will have to augment our larger treaty. We can add set a term of years to our NAP, giving us occasion, many years from now, to revisit our treaty, as we are doing now. On the other hand, we can instead adopt a standing obligation to give prior turns notice of cancelation. We would enjoy either type of NAP equally, so it is up to the wise Sirians to choose which best suits them.

Accordingly, and under Section 10.2 of the SAP:

Spoiler :

Section 10. Amendments

10.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by either member.

10.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon agreement of both members.

We submit the following proposed amendments to section 2.2 of the SAP and request that our friends in the Sirian Business choose the one that suits them best. The one that Sirius chooses will immediately replace the current Section 2.2, and thus become part of the SAP treaty.

Here are our proposed amendments for Sirius to choose from:

Choice 1:

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled until 1500AD.

or

Choice 2:

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled except with 10 turns prior written notice via team gmail and PM to the most recent turnplayer.

We look forward to the Sirians decision. May our mighty Alliance continue to dominate Starland and beyond.

nabaxo, Special Envoy to Sirius

Any other ideas?

 

[damnrunner]

So it seems we are preparing to back stab Sirius - I am ok with that but seem to have missed the discussion on this.

What is our plan to pull this off? I assume the plan is to roll over their cities on Jenniland. And I assume these cities are lightly defended so that we won't need to use a big stack. Also have we been coordinating plans at all with other ETTT members? We really will want to keep CDZ on our side as we do this.

 

[nabaxo]

Huh? No we're not. We need the extension. We were worried to getting back-stabbed ourselves though.

 

[2metraninja]

To me, backstabbing Sirius just like that is absolutely unacceptable. I think we just discuss IF we so decide that we will be able to do it

 

[Sommerswerd]

So it seems we are preparing to back stab Sirius - I am ok with that but seem to have missed the discussion on this.

Huh?!?, What ?!? Uhhh... I think the reason you missed it is because it never happened Look at what I was just saying...

last time they took the15-turn option, which we don't want to happen again... My guess is they go for the longer period of peace... They are better off with 50 turns guaranteed peace because we will likely want to extend again anyway.

I dont get where you get "we are planning to backstab" out of that. All I am saying is doing things this way gives us more leverage, and more options. We have to protect ourselves, but not give Sirius too much security... Otherwise they will just forgoe military in favor of infrastructure and run away with the game. They are already 200 pts ahead us, comfortably controlling the adjacent landmass. We absolutely have to keep them on their toes so they dont get too far ahead where we cant catch up.

To me, backstabbing Sirius just like that is absolutely unacceptable. I think we just discuss IF we so decide that we will be able to do it

I agree. Whatever happens with Sirius, we MUST abide by our treaties. Backstabbing is a no-go.

On that note, I should mention for the record that we offered Sheep to Sirius the same turn that we offered sheep to Quatronia. Quatronia accepted, Sirius did not. I offered Sheep for Marble to Sirius and Sheep for Spices to Quatronia. Sirius turned the deal down, opting for the Marble for 1 gpt instead.

I just mention this because the SAP requires us to give Sirius priority when trading excess resources. I wanted to write down somewhere that we offered Sheep to them and they refused just in case later they try to claim we violated the treaty by trading Sheep to Q and not them.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I went ahead and sent the last draft letter to Sirius, since everyone had time to comment.

 

[damnrunner]

So it seems I misread things. Whoops.

 

[nabaxo]

We got mail from Sirius:

Greetings Amazons

Just a short message to inform you we have all here agreed with

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled until 1500AD.

as the desired amendment with which to extend the ASP.

We look forward to the continued peace and prosperity.

Best wishes,
- Hide quoted text -

Irgy, on behalf of Team Sirius

 

[2metraninja]

Just got 2 e-mails from Sirius, which are both 2 days old:

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 1:11 AM, Team Sirius <sirius.mtdg@gmail.com> wrote:

A brief follow-up: Gunpowder is also an option we are considering.


On 1/27/2011 2:32 PM, Team Sirius wrote:
> Dear ETTA members,
>
> We have become aware that coordinating our efforts through diplomatic channels has suffered recently, leading to the loss of the technological advantage we had over the Mavericks/Merlot alliance. We note that the ETTA were beaten to Guilds by Mavericks/Merlot. This is not something that should have happened. We are as responsible for this as any other team, and feel it necessary to remedy the situation by making a concerted effort towards better communications.
>
> Specifically, it has come to our attention that both Quatronia and ourselves were researching Nationalism. We did not discover this until both our teams had nearly completed researching this tech. They (Quatronia) believed we were researching Printing Press, which we were until we thought CDZ was researching this tech. We now see that CDZ was researching Education. Regardless of how this came about we need to avoid wasting our research in the future, as it negates a significant advantage we have over Mavericks/Merlot.
>
> Furthermore, we propose not only better coordination, but also a greater effort to regain a (military) technological advantage over Mavericks/Merlot. During the current conflict we have all forgone research in order to save cash upgrade units or gain espionage advantages on Mavericks/Merlot. We now advocate a return to a research focus so that the ETTA makes full use of our research capabilities.
>
> We feel the ETTA would greatly benefit from a discussion of research priorities. And more specifically, what sort of military advantage we are aiming for (muskets/cannons/cuiraissers? rifles?).
>
> In the interim, we have put a turn of research into Liberalism, but do not want to complete this tech until more expensive research options (say, Steel) become available. We have considered researching Constitution (for Representation to further boost research) or Military Tradition next (cuiraissers/cavalry). What are the other ETTA members researching now?
>
> Finally, we also feel it would be to our mutual benefit to better coordinate our war efforts against Mavericks/Merlot.
>
> We look forward to hearing the opinions of other ETTA members regarding these matters.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Team Sirius

 

[2metraninja]

And the answer I composed short after:

Team AMAZON <teamamazon1@gmail.com>
to Team Sirius <sirius.mtdg@gmail.com>,
team cdz <team.cdz@gmail.com>,
Quatronia Quatronia <quatronia10@gmail.com>,
quatronia@gmail.com
date Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:07 AM
subject Re: technology research/Mav-Merlot war
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 12:07 AM (3 minutes ago)

Dear ETTA members,

We are sorry to hear about the wasting of research currently occurred. But more important is we to take lesson of this and not let it to happen again by communicating better in the future.

We want to inform you, that we have spies positioned and espionage points accumulated to steal Guilds in the next 4 turns, so we will be back on par with M&M technologically quick. Then we are going to steal Gunpowder too, as Merlots are researching it and will have it in 8 turns if they keep their rate. Then we will be available to research the next agreed technology.

After securing the Martathon peninsula, at the moment we are in process of regrouping and building an army, capable of seriously hurting our enemies at their homes and once we are near finishing equipping our expeditionary force, we will be glad to discuss and coordinate military actions with our allies.

About research priorities, we have to make a discussion inside the team and
between the teams to find the best way forward.

Regards,

Team Amazon.

 

[nabaxo]

Incoming mail:

from Team Sirius <sirius.mtdg@gmail.com>
to Team AMAZON <teamamazon1@gmail.com>,
Quatronia Quatronia <quatronia10@gmail.com>,
team cdz <team.cdz@gmail.com>

Fellow ETTA members,

In the interest of expediency, and regaining our advantage over the Maverick/Merlot alliance, we would like to fully commit to research as soon as possible. The question is how to best allocate our research. As we mentioned earlier, we believe Steel and Rifling should be our immediate targets.

We have considerable research capabilities available to us. We have a strong economy, are building universities and, and can finish Liberalism in 2 turns when we are ready to take advantage of the free technology. If the Amazon are going to steal Guilds and then Gunpowder, we can direct our research elsewhere. Our understanding is that Quatronia is currently researching Printing Press, which leads to Replaceable Parts > Rifling. We are currently unaware of CDZ's research plans.

We intend to research Constitution (for Representation) now, and then take over research of Replaceable Parts, when Printing Press is completed.

We would also like to inform you that we are building Taj Mahal. We hope this does not conflict with any other member's plans.

Regards,

Trystero, Sirian diplomat

 

[2metraninja]

Those Sirians are really nice guys. And the most important is that they took our friendship serious.

Anjennida culture

Inbox

Team Sirius
to me
show details Feb 11 (1 day ago)

Dear Amazonian friends,

We would like to build libraries in our cities on Anjennida to further improve our research. However, we are concerned about the impact of the additional culture on your cities. In a few truns Achernar will have >100 culture and have a cultural expansion. We are willing to provide you with Confucian missionaries to help offset our culture, but would like your thoughts on the matter.

Regards,

Trystero, Team Sirius

 

[2metraninja]

And the aforementioned letter about Siruis asking us to tech Banking quick:

research update

Inbox
Reply
Team Sirius
to team, me, Quatronia

show details 9:45 AM (14 hours ago)

Dear ETTA members:

A quick update to confirm our research plans. We have finished Constitution and we see Quatronia has completed Printing Press, while Amazon has obtained Guilds and Gunpowder from Merlot, and CDZ is working on Military Tradition.

It is our understanding that Quatronia will now research Chemistry while Amazon gets Banking. We cannot begin Replaceable Parts until Banking is available, so we will save cash to research to Rifling without delay after we obtain Banking.

Is our understanding of the current situation correct? How long does Amazon anticipate it will be before Banking is complete?

Many thanks,

Trystero, Team Sirius

 

[Sommerswerd]

... well... we could get Banking in 4 turns if they gave us 1000 gold. Or they could just tech it themselves and we can go after something else.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Those Sirians are really nice guys. And the most important is that they took our friendship serious.

The whole reason we agreed to their dotmap on Anjennida is because they agreed not to build cultural buildings until we finished our libraries. Now, having gotten our consent to their horrible dotmap, they want to do exactly what they promised NOT to do... ie. Build cultural buildings before our libraries finish. Their cities are choking ours culturally... exactly what we warned them would happen with their dotmap, now they want to make it worse... Confucianism Missionary helps only for the cities without religion, and it also helps them because it gives them so that is not really a favor.

I say we accept the Missionaries if they want to spread their religion, but we still insist that they wait for our libraries as per the agreement. We should be able to slave them soon no?

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, I think even 1 is already slaved, 2 to follow in short.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Then we should accept the Missionaries for sure, for when we switch to Free Religion Civic.

 

[damnrunner]

We should accept the missionaries - but it won't help us until we switch civics. What civics are we in right now btw? Still Theo form the war - or are we back in OR to slave buildings?

The missionaries could also help us get our GP city up and running as we will want a city with several temples. We also should think about slaving a few temples/monasteries/theaters. All are fairly cheap and we need the culture or our cities will be choked.

Can we give Sirus an ETA of when we will be ok culture wise? We should also respond that while we will accept the missionaries, it won't help our culture and that they need to wait until XXX so that we have time to finish some needed culture buildings.