Embassy to Team Sirius

[nabaxo]

Go ahead. Forget about ToA.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sirius switched back to SciMeth... then they whine that they should be the ones to tech Economics

Ok, we've switched back to Scientific Method for now then.

Are you that far through it though? Will it be complete soon? We need to get it before our golden age runs in 4 turns so that we can switch to Free Market. If you can't complete it in that time then we can only assume you're not that far through it, and we would in that case request to swap, as we can research it in time ourselves.



Irgy, on behalf of Team Sirius

 

[Sommerswerd]

Our response... I basically insist that we called Economics, we need the Merchant, and they should not be so greedy. I also whine a little about them " forcing" us to give up ToA ... maybe this will make them feel like they owe us.

Dear Sirians,

Since you will be switching back to Scientific Method, we will discontinue Temple of Artemis. You are correct that the benefit was to be short lived. However, respectfully, weprefer to complete Economics ourselves, as we have already put beakers into itand we already have madeplans based on using the Great Merchant. Indeed our decision to tech Banking was made with these plans in mind.

We understand and regret the great inconvenience to you in having to endure a turn of Anarchy as a result of not recieving Economics during your Golden Age. We would just point out that since you were already teching Scientific Method, and these plans have essentially not been disturbed, you would have had to endure the Anarchy anyway, and it was only briefly that the possibilty of a convient in-Golden Age switch was even contemplated.

Also, the reason the Sirians are enjoying a Golden Age, is because you claimed the Golden Age producing Wonders. As youclaimed them as soon as they were available, you are entitled to the benefits. We hope you will agree that the same applies to Economics and the Great Merchant. It would be a strange situation indeed to claim wonders that give Golden Ages and then usurp our claim to the Great Merchant justified as a consequence of your long Golden Age. We are presently in Anarchy sowe can not give you an exact time for Ecoomics, but we estimate completion in 6 turns.

Sommerswerd of The AMAZON

 

[Sommerswerd]

Latest gmail from Sirius... I'm thinking that our best bet is to just ignore this, as it is turning into a petty argument, obviously tainted by their hard feelings over the issues on Comet. There is nothing to be gained by continuing to argue about it, as they have grudgingly acknowledged our claim to the Great Merchant. What concerns me though, is that they don't explicity promise to give us the Merchant, they just say that they theoretically "could" transfer it... and then they go on to claim that "the Merchant really belongs to the whole alliance" which is obvious hogwash... I just don't see any point in publicly arguing about it further... CDZ and Q probably couldn't care less about it, and I have pushed the Sirians enough recently... better to let them have the last word.

It seems that generally, Sirius is preoccupied with always getting comparative advantage on every single issue... they never seem to be willing to make any sacrifices in the interest of alliance cohesion and goodwill... for example, we swallowed their terrible Anjennida dotmap purely in the interest of goodwill, Q and CDZ accepted the settlement restriction on Hoag, solely to preserve goodwill... Sirius on the other hand, never makes a sacrifice, and always whine to have it their way. This latest dispute similarly is all about what is most convenient for them... they want to avoid Anarchy... they can tech faster, they want Free Market, blah blah blah... anyway I guess every marriage has some strife

Just to be clear, Scientific Method was an emergency placeholder. We
already had enough beakers (overflow from the previous tech) in it to be
somewhat committed to it, and another turn of research into it does not
change that either way. It is not too late to still choose to delay it
for a while if that is considered worthwhile. I still think avoiding the Temple of Artemis is a better choice though, I'd expect you'd get more commerce building wealth than you'll get out of it before it obsoletes.


The Merchant is neither here nor there, as it may quite easily be
transferred from one civilisation to another anyway. So if that is the
main reason you wish to continue research into Economics then forget
about it, as it is an illusory issue. We could question what claim you
have to it in the first place, we don't recall any negotiation for its
use and if anything it should be the property of the entire ETTT just as
the technology that creates it is. However, it's clear enough that you
have outmaneuvered us on that issue long ago and there is no sense
trying to argue about it now, the time to dispute it was when you
informed us* of your research plans a month ago, not now. So if we do
research Economics we can transfer you the Merchant.

The issue then is entirely about the costs of a turn's anarchy against
the cost of wasted beakers from duplicate research. Given that we can
research the technology in two turns, as a rough estimate if you are not half way through it
already the turn's worth of anarchy is likely to
cost the ETTT on the whole more commerce than the lost beakers of switching who researches it. This is
the last turn we have to start on it in time to make use of the golden
age however, so a swift resolution of this issue is important.


Irgy, on behalf of Team Sirius




* A team member has identified when you did indeed tell us this earlier.
I had missed it because it was in a pm not an email (which I did look
through) and a month ago now, which also happened to be the day before
my Tonsilectomy so I wasn't paying much attention at the time. Still,
excuses aside, I'll try and keep more on top of this sort of thing in
future.

--
Regards,

Team Sirius

 

[2metraninja]

Did you answered them that they can have a go on the Economics?

They are right that 1 turn of anarchy for them is more than the beakers we will lose on the tech.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't trust them to give us the great Merchant after they get it, especially after they stole a city from us.. so no... anyway who cares about their lost beakers? I care about our lost beakers not theirs.

As I said earlier, they never promised to give us the Merchant, they just said they "could" do it. Hell, they said they "could" give us Mizra, but they never did. As long as they keep Mirza, they can't be trusted. Until they give us Mirza, we should not do anything to help them that puts us at risk.

 

[2metraninja]

To me, their point is valid - why would we want to get the merchant, then to use it for mission with which gold we to tech technology, which can be done with the same effect by Sirius?

If we wanted, we could said them the same - if they got the merchant, they to use it for bulbing or for gold with which they to tech.

BTW, should I go and build the 2 last cities or we are still waiting for some response and compromise from them?

 

[nabaxo]

But we want to use the merchant for Sid's Sushi.

 

[2metraninja]

Sid Sushi is far away, last time, Sommerswerd was talking about using the merchant for mission and using the gold for teching crucial tech by choice.

 

[2metraninja]

I strongly suggest we give Sirius green light to discover Economics, as I just checked - with the maintenance for the 2 new cities I just built on Comet, we will need 9 turns to actually discover it if we switch ALL of our cities to build wealth.

 

[Sommerswerd]

To me, their point is valid - why would we want to get the merchant, then to use it for mission with which gold we to tech technology, which can be done with the same effect by Sirius?

If we wanted, we could said them the same - if they got the merchant, they to use it for bulbing or for gold with which they to tech.

BTW, should I go and build the 2 last cities or we are still waiting for some response and compromise from them?

We need merchant for upgrading our super units to Rifles and Cannons to finish off Merlot once and for all... not for bulbing... I never said I wanted it for bulbing. If it was for bulbing what you say would make sense since we share tech, but since we need Merchant for upgrades we can't trust them to give it to us.

Also the issue is dead anyway because Sirius needed to switch tech LAST turn to get Economics before their GA ends... if they switch now it serves no purpose. As for the cities, Yes found them as they have had plenty of time to comprise but they refused... which is another reason we can't trust them with our Great Merchant.

 

[2metraninja]

We are playing dangerous game, risking the friendship of our most old an powerful friends, without assuring ourselves a new devoted friends, on which we can count.

Also, we will compromise ourselves when it becomes clear we cant tech quick at all. With Vandal building Versailes and Otreta building Sistine for 10 turns, it will take us well 15-20 turns before we complete Economics. Just for comparison, Sirius said they can have it in 2. How long it will take them to be pissed at us and start planning to get rid of us?

Do you think it will pay off for us to have upgraded 15 rifles will give us MHI faster than if our tech-partners could tech more advanced soldiers like infantries and artillery?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sirius is nowhere near splitting from us. Their cities are far too vunerable to attack by us at this time. More importantly, any Ally splitting would be suicidal because the other would obviously join with M&M, who have enough Army to destroy us all... if only they had Astronomy and Rifling. We will benefit greatly from getting MHI before they get Mavs home island.

Plus with Versailes and cottages we will tech faster soon. We have a good relationship with CDZ. We don't need to be scared of Sirius, especially when we get our Rifles. Don't worry my friend, we will kiss and make up with Sirius soon enough. We will make nice over cultural expansions on Comet.

 

[Sommerswerd]

One last thing I forgot to mention... Since Sirius is FIN and we are not, the only way we can hope to compete in tech is to have MORE cities than them. That is why we must REX Comet, that is why we need armies fast to capture MHI, then quickly move on to capture Mavs home island. We must have way more land than Sirius to out-tech them. We can't hope to get more cities than Sirius by giving them free civic switches without Anarchy, and caving in to their every whim while they steal cities from us.

Sirius knows this... that is why they seek to halt our expansions... Sirius wants to win, so they will always be mad when we act in OUR interest instead of theirs. As long as we are helping them win instead of helping ourselves, they will love us dearly... but that is the path of suckers

So that is why we need cities all over Comet to the spire, to give us continuous land all the Way to Mavs home island, so that we have a valid claim to it when we take it.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sirius just gifted us the Great Merchant, so apparently we are still bestest buddies

 

[nabaxo]

That is sweet! Magnanimous of them.

 

[damnrunner]

Well that is useful.

 

[Sommerswerd]

D@mn... I missed this... sent to us about 5 days ago. I will PM/gmail a quick response to let them know to expect a longer one later... This is pretty "Sirius" stuff, so we need to be very engaged with them or they may just decide that we are their enemy on this.

Basically the letter says, they teched Econ, and they are giving us the Great Merchant since we called it. They are letting us have the rest of Comet (not that they could have stopped us)... And MOST importantly...

Sirius wants to end the ETTT, particularly with CDZ and Quatronia. They recognize that the SAP treaty obligates them to stay in the ETTT with us. Also, Sirius proposes that we gangbang Quatronia, and they already proposed this to CDZ. Heavy stuff... Anyway, here is the letter:

Greetings, friends of the Amazon

First, a short explanation on the Economics situation. Having explained that the merchant was never the issue, we were still waiting for a response with regards to the best option in terms of lost commerce. I was assuming we would default to Scientific Method if we heard nothing, but I wasn't pushing the issue as I was expecting a response to appear in time. The turn players, in their wisdom, chose to default to Economics instead. On the whole I expect both options were almost equally wasteful in their own ways so it's probably not such a big deal either way. As a sign of respect for your original claim to the technology though we are in the process of transferring the Merchant over to you, I understand it is on Anjennida already and should arrive soon.

Just to clear another side issue, I have failed to get the required support for transferring Mizar to your control. That "New City" was already settled in its somewhat pointless location before the final vote was cast likely did not help matters, though we perfectly understand that you did not wish to wait for the completion of our interminable debate on the issue before settling. Since you appear to have no wish for any alternative compromise, we can only request that we both keep the dispute on Comet from spreading into other areas while it plays itself out. We will also make no moves to block or outrace your other settlers in the area.

With those issues out of the way, we'd like to start talking about the future. In particular, we strongly believe that the time to end the ETTT, at least as it currently stands, has arrived, and we intend to withdraw ourselves from it in the near future.

We appreciate that M&M have not yet been completely dealt with, but the reality is that with Cannons, Rifles and Cavalry available we finally have the military technology lead we need. We expect M&M to be defeated well before any other military technology is completed, so the need to share technology with our other rivals in order to defeat M&M is finished.

So, we see absolutely no point then in continuing to support the spongers in the south. However, we are aware of our various obligations under section 7 of the ASP. So, we wish your advice on how best to extract ourselves from giving technology to Quatronia and CDZ. We are happy to continue fair technology trades with any team, and we are also happy to continue a complete tech equality agreement with yourselves. We would like to hear your preference on how to go about this, but I need to stress that the team is absolutely adamant about not continuing to gift technologies to CDZ and Quatronia.

Apologies, I cut and paste incorrectly from our discussion thread, and was missing the second half of the previous email. Here it is.

We have been planning for this somewhat already. We sent a message to CDZ suggesting that it would be in their interests to support a war against Quatronia once M&M have been defeated. This would split the two teams and provide easy pickings for both ourselves and yourselves in the future. However, we have not heard back from them, and can only assume that despite their repeated conflicts with Quatronia they are still tied to them. We are concerned as well that CDZ might desire to pull you into a three way alliance against us, as our current golden-age boosted demographics may be of concern to them. Have you heard anything from them in this regard?

We hope all is well in your homelands,
Irgy, on behalf of Team Sirius

 

[Sommerswerd]

I am PMing and gmailing this now so they dont think our silence is indicative of a conspiracy against them... nabaxo, you're getting blamed, sorry:

Sirian Friends,

Apologies for not responding sooner to your letter, which raises many 'Sirius' issues, (pardon the pun, it was irresistable). Our Special Envoy to Sirius was AWOL again, but as I can see he is back now, you should get a longer reply soon.

What I can say, without any discussion with the team mind you, is that we appreciate you sending the Great Merchant to us... Admittedly, I myself was skeptical that you would honour our claim to it. The next thing is that as far as I'm concerned, the Mizar issue is water under the bridge. We will claim the rest of Comet and we dont need to talk about it anymore, Others on the team might feel differently, and this might be in the longer letter.

As for the rest of your letter, please wait for our Envoy to get back to you, but I can speak for myself and say that your general feelings are in line with my thinking. Be assured that we are not part of any 3-way conspiracy against you. That was the main reason I wanted to respond to you quickly to let you know that.

Sommerswerd

 

[Sommerswerd]

In our full reply, I think we should tell them...

1. The Economics issue was contested issue, with half the team supporting Sirius' desire to tech it... the Captain was against discussing it further, feeling that Sirius mind was already made up, and further discussion would just be inflammatory. Yes we lost many beakers, but our friendship with Sirius has given us many times more beakers than the ones we lost.

2. Merci beaucoup for the great Merchant, and expect a ship to be bringing him to you soon for a trade mission. So that you can be sure that the ship contains no spies, we can send you a screenshot if you say you want it.

3. Some on our team are still sore about Mizar, and so further discussion about it will only inflame them. You have Mizar, and we will claim the rest of Comet. You promise not to obstruct us, so let us move to other matters. The disputes on Comet will not spread to other parts of the world, nor will they erode our alliance

4. We agree that you (Sirius) carrying the alliance's tech must be cumbersome. We are actually surprised that you bore the burden so long without protest. We did not expect you to renew the SAP treaty, as it obligates you to remain a member of the ETTT

5. On a side note, we notice that you continue to call the treaty the ASP, which of course means 'snake', while we continue to call it the SAP, which of course means 'sucker'. We are both putting the name of the other nation first in an attempt to show affection and deference, but either designation, the snake, shifty, unreliable, treacherous person,or the sucker, foolish, naive and easily taken advantage of is really no proper name for our treaty. That is a seperate issue, but we thought it would be amusing to you if we brought it up, and add some needed levity to this situation.

6. Sirius can not unilaterally withdraw honourably from the ETTT. The only way for a member to leave the ETTT is under: Section 2.2. Section 2.2 requires consent of all other members, so CDZ Q and AMAZON would have to vote Sirius out. Of course, we cant vote Sirius out, because under section 7.4 the SAP treaty forbids either us or Sirius from voting the other out. So the only way Sirius can get out of the ETTT is to violate the treaty, which means they can be automatically expelled under section 2.3. However this would obviously make them untrustworthy, dishonourable treaty breakers, and I dont know if they are comfortable with that.

7. We should suggest that Sirius wait until M&M are elimminated, then ask CDZ to vote with us to expel Quatronia. Once Quatronia is voted out, the two of us can vote to expel CDZ. That is the only sane way to do it within the boundaries of the treaty, because if we dump an ETTT ally BEFORE M&M were elimminated, that ally would obviously join M&M immediately, giving M&M all their tech, including Rifling, Steel and Astronomy which would = doom for the former ETTT allies, because of the huge Candy-Axis armies.

8. Another suggestion would be for Sirius to just stop teching, as we have the tech advantage we need already to capture the M&M islands. If they focus on , or and capturing the Mavs island, they dont have to give any more tech to CDZ or Q, because they wont be getting any new techs.

9. This is a good time to tell them that we have destroyed the Candy-Axis tech with our spy missions, making it impossible for them to advance to to Astronomy, thus keeping thier massive armies trapped on their islands. This is why Merlot's score keeps decreasing. We can also tell them that our is so high that we can steal any tech anyway so our main concern is not them leaving, but just that jilted allies will give away our hard earned advantage to M&M.

As a side matter, we already have grounds to cancel the treaty with them at will, as they have violated section 7.2 by teching Economics (and violated the ETTT by teching Nationalism), and section 8.1, by building the Mausoleum of M., without telling us. Therefore, under section 2.4 we can cancel the treaty with them at any time. IDK whether we should mention this to them or keep quiet about it. Which would be better?