Embassy to Team Sirius

I have to read all of this and assimilate it, but the first thing that comes to my mind is

"WHEN WE ATTACK Q THEY WILL GIFT ALL OUR TECHS TO M&M!"

With their count of soldiers, and if/when they have galleons what we will do then?!?
 
Well, a lot of Sirious thoughts.

I dont know from where to start. For now, I am glad that they call Q and CDZ spongers and not us :whew:
 
Exacty!, which is why we must persuade them to stay in ETTT until the evil Candy
- Axis is destroyed.

Absolutely we must persuade them to this.

Something else is bothering me too. CDZ keeping silent after Sirius proposed them to attack Q isn't good. I dont have many contacts with those guys but one, and what I saw from this one, he have absolute intolerablility about arrogant super-powers and treaty-breaking. And Sirius fit well in both criteria.
 
I think your proposal Sommers is absolute fine and for this I am sure - we must tell Sirius if they want to stop feed techs to Q and CDZ, just to stop teching and we both to arm to the teeth and destroy M&M as soon as possible with all means necessary. When they are gone, we will have their home islands. Sadly, we will have to divide MHI with CDZ. Lets hope they will help us to get it.
 
I think your proposal Sommers is absolute fine and for this I am sure - we must tell Sirius if they want to stop feed techs to Q and CDZ, just to stop teching and we both to arm to the teeth and destroy M&M as soon as possible with all means necessary. When they are gone, we will have their home islands. Sadly, we will have to divide MHI with CDZ. Lets hope they will help us to get it.
General, you are wise:) I will draft the letter to Sirius (in nabaxo's name) outlining the points I mentioned.
 
Sun Tsu teaches us that if we are strong, we must seek to tackle the other strong to fight, not the easier fight. If we, the Amazons and all the other ETTT members are afraid of Sirius power (and more about their potential) then this is the best time we all to get rid of them 3vs1.

Also, we will benefit most of it, as they are closer to us and we share the biggest border with them, so we will be able to take the biggest chunck of them and be the biggest nation when the war is over...

BUT!

- We will lose our "best friend" or at least the most close and most active our partner.

- We have threaty with CDZ, but can we really trust them in the future?

- And I have been dealing with a less active/minor nations in an alliance (MTDG Warmup and Mavericks pitbosses). Believe me - most of the times the smaller nations are small not by random, nor because of real circumstances, but because they think small. They think their small things, they are easily scared, they dont obey and dont understand the importance of coordination and tactical gambits for the bigger goal. In few words, even with 3vs1 if the other 2 nations are not ready/eager/capable of coordinated war efforts agains Sirius when we count on them, we can easily lose the war. Are CDZ and Q reliable partners for us?

- Also, this will give M&M a breath of fresh air to recover and become threat again. They most probably wont be a factor in the between-ETTT war because it takes to build ships, to upgrade troops and to have the time and money for all of this, but after some time...?

We must think twice or triple if needed before really taking that course.
 
Is it wise to tell sirius of our Spymissionstrategy? Im sure they're experienced players and know everything about the power of spys, but still. I mean, if (when) we're going to fight them it would be better if we didnt remind them of how deadly espionagemissions can be.
 
Depends on what we aim for. If we want to scare them or to show them we are strong, we must tell them for sure. Otherwise, no :)
 
I say Sommers suggestion is good, go ahead with sending it. And if we're going to exclude anyone in the ETTT it should be Q, zombies are not good allies.

Also, Majic, I say we shouldn't hide our espionage powers to, you know, gently "remind" them of how good we can screw them over with it...
 
I think they probably suspect what we are doing with spys. Also informing them of what we have done to cripple M&M will show that we are not just freeloading off their tech lead but that we are the team taking the greatest effort to actually damage our enemies. I think this line of argumentation is a strong one for why the alliance should stay together until M&M are defeated. We want to do as much as possible to highlight the essential role we are playing in breaking the M&M econ.
 
OK, based on everyone's comments, here is the letter going to Sirius:
Sirian Friends,

Sirius and The AMAZON are friends and The AMAZON is not plotting against Sirus
We appreciate your letter, and we are sorry that it was not noticed sooner. You raised many concerns, and we will try to begin with the most pressing and proceed forward from there. First, and most importantly, The AMAZON is committed to our alliance with Sirius, we regard you as our oldest and most cherished friends. We are not party to any 3 way alliance agianst Sirius, nor have we made any plans with CDZ or Q to make war on Sirius or otherwise act against you. So we say absolutely and unambiguously that we are your friends and we have not been conspiring with others against you.

Ending the ETTT prematurely would be disasterous
Second, almost of equal importance, the wise Sirians must realize that if the ETTT was to expel a member or members now, Quatronia or CDZ for example, the expelled parties would immediately join the evil Candy-Axis and give away the technological advantage that we currently enjoy.

More specifically, the home island garrisons of both M&M nations are huge. If they were to simply obtain Astronomy, they could most likely invade and recapture enough territory to re-establish themselves. With Rifling and Steel, they could upgrade and possibly destroy all of us.

Therefore we implore you, in the strongest voice possible, please reconsider the path of excluding CDZ and or Quatronia from the ETTT until we have completed the task which was the purpose of the ETTT, the complete destruction of M&M. We know that the political climate in the Sirius Business is sour to this idea, so we have some suggestions for hopefully making it more palatable. We will address this later in this letter.

The AMAZONs Espionage efforts against M&M
On a directly related matter, the reason we are accutely aware of the strength of the Candy-Axis military is because of our espionage efforts. We believe this is a good time to tell our Sirian friends that part of the reason our technological contributions have been slow, is due in part to our committed focus on driving the M&M economy to a halt, via constant and sustained espionage missions.

Perhaps the Sirians have noticed the sharp and steady decrease in Merlot's score. This is not simply from slaving, it is the result of starvation. We have used our agents to force Merlot to slave population away before it starves away, creating a vicious cycle that denies them the ability to work their gem mines and numerous cottages. At present, the once mighty Merlot Capital, which was the largest city in the world, has a population of 1. Merlot other cities are pop 3 and 5. This is our doing.

We have dedicated ourselves to this effort, realizing that the size of the enemy armies were too vast for invasion, until we obtained a substantial tech advantage. We recognized that if we did not act to prevent M&M from getting Astronomy, they would be able to launch invasions and recapture territory, possibly even overwhelm us in a Blitzkrieg.

We knew that even if we focused on tech, our contribution to our FIN ETTT allies would be modest. But with our substantial espionage abilities, we have tried to protect the ETTT by making it impossible for Candy-Axis to advance to to Astronomy, thus keeping their massive armies trapped on their islands. At this moment, Merlot has abandoned building military in favor of spies in a pitiful attept to counter our crippling espionage. We tell you this, despite some concern on our team that it would be revealing too much. The reason we are sharing this with you, is to give you information about what we have been spending money on, in lieu of teching quickly.

Putting aside our recent disputes
We thank you greatly for sending us the Great Merchant. We would like to use it for a trade mission to your capital. Please expect a ship to bring him to you soon. If you request it, we are happy to give you a screenshot of the vessel en-route, so there are no worries that there are spies onboard.

Economics was a contested issue, with half the team supporting Sirius' desire to tech it... the Captain was against discussing it further, feeling that Sirius mind was already made up, and further discussion would just be inflammatory. Yes we lost many beakers, but our friendship with Sirius has given us many times more beakers than the ones we lost, so we can bear no grudge over this.

Additionally, some on our team are still sore about Mizar, and so further discussion about it will only inflame them. You have Mizar, and we will claim the rest of Comet. You have promised not to obstruct us, so let us move to other matters. We can confirm to you that the cultural conflict on Comet will not spread to other parts of the world, or erode our alliance. You are our friends, and it will stay that way.

On ending the ETTT
We agree that you carrying the alliance's tech must be cumbersome. We are actually surprised that you bore the burden so long without protest. We did not expect you to renew the SAP treaty, as it obligates you to remain a member of the ETTT under section 7.3.*

We have analyzed the ETTT, and in our opinion, Sirius can not unilaterally withdraw honourably from the ETTT. The only way for a member to leave the ETTT is under Section 2.2, which requires consent of all other members, so CDZ, Q and AMAZON would have to vote Sirius out. Of course, we cant vote Sirius out, because Section 7.4 the SAP treaty forbids either of us from voting the other out. So the only way Sirius can get out of the ETTT is to violate the treaty, which means they can be automatically expelled under section 2.3.

Besides comprimising our honour, violating the treaty would almost certainly result in CDZ and Q joining M&M and attacking us both, which we would prefer to avoid. Our espionage production is high enough that we are confident that we would be able to steal any tech that a team outside the ETTT researches as soon as they get it. Indeed, two of the last three techs we contributed to the ETTT were stolen. So we are less concerned with any member leaving the ETTT, as long as M&M are elimminated first.

Of course you already know all of this, but it does not address you issue of not wanting to give any more tech to CDZ and Q. What we suggest, is that Sirius should just stop teching immediately. As you correctly pointed out, we already have the tech advantage we need already to capture the M&M islands, and our espionage prevents them from advancing in tech any further.

If you instead focus on gold, you can bolster yourselves in other areas... upgrades for example, and still stop contributing to the advancement of CDZ and Q. This way you do it without technically violating the treaty and without driving them into the welcome arms of M&M. We are currently preparing to invade Merlot, as you are preparing to invade Mavericks. We also suggest, that you could speed this process along if you were willing to subsidize our upgrades, through a grant or loan while you halt your tech in favor of gold.

Once M&M are elimminated, we could then ask CDZ to vote with us to expel Quatronia as you suggest. Once Quatronia is voted out, the two of us could then vote to expel CDZ. That is the only sane way to do it within the boundaries of the treaty, because if we dump an ETTT ally BEFORE M&M were elimminated, that ally would obviously join M&M immediately, giving M&M all their tech, including Rifling, Steel and Astronomy which would doom the former ETTT allies.

Patience is what we advise our wise Sirian Friends. We look forward to hearing from you.

nabaxo, Special Envoy to Sirius

*On a side note, we notice that you continue to call the treaty the ASP, which of course means 'snake', while we continue to call it the SAP, which of course means 'sucker'. We are both putting the name of the other nation first in an attempt to show affection and deference, but either designation, the snake, shifty, unreliable, treacherous person,or the sucker, foolish, naive and easily taken advantage of is really no proper name for our treaty. That is a seperate issue, but we thought it would be amusing to you if we brought it up, and add some needed levity to this situation.
I decided to leave out the part about our grounds to cancel the treaty with because this letter is about making nice so they stay in the ETTT. I thought threats about canceling the treaty would be antagonistic.

Letter sent...Anyway I hope this works, because if M&M gets Astronomy we are all screwed.:(
 
BLubmuz said:
Sommerswerd said:
we should have sent you a gmail yesterday plz confirm you got it
Lord Parkin already posted it in our dedicated diplo thread.
Thank you.

I just read it. Mavericks will be a memory in 6 turns or so.
Got this reply PM from the Sirius General... so we really must accelerate our effort to destroy Merlot. Is this hot air or do they really have enough troops to take Mavs out:confused:? If they are that strong that is a little scary:eek:
 
I cant be sure, but my instincts say no, they are not ready to kill off such strong Mavs in 6 turns.
 
Very good letter, BTW. And I agree that it is not the right time to point out our issues with them, but our reasons and advantages to stick together.
 
Sirius teched Corporation:eek:, that means that when Railroad is discovered, they will be able to get Mining Inc... Unless we get our Great Engineer First:cringe: Anyway I requested it, we will see if they actually give it to us. CDZ and Q have still not requested Econ...:hmm: Maybe they are trying to build some Castles...:dunno: But since they dont have Econ they wont be able to tell we have Corporation.

I will log back in to see if they have an engineer. Do we have any hope of getting an Engineer anywhere:confused: I doubt it but i will check... this sucks. I want Mining Co and Greedy greedy Sushi Co.

Sirius landed a good sized stack on Mavs Island. The stack has no siege, it is mostly Rifles and Cavalry, but I still am doubtful that Mavs can defeat it since they used all their siege on Quatronia's stack. We must elimminate Merlot quickly or all is lost. Maybe Mavs have one more decisive victory up their sleves against the Sirius landing party but this may be their last stand... unless they have alot of catapults left AND they use that Great General they have to heal them.
 
From civstats it seems that Sirius transferred Corporation to us.:goodjob: They also sent us the letter below. Apparently, there was some paranoia over there that we were conspiring against them, which has gone away as a result of our last letter. They put forth a few plans for withdrawal from the ETTT which they invite us to select from. They at least claim that they are willing to accept our proposal that they stop teching. Finally, they say they will accept our Merchant trade mission and they trust us not to drop off spies.

One important part of this message, is that they seem to acknowledge the possibility that Mavs might be actually able to fight them off again. If Mavs fail, then they will capture Mavs island (in 6 turns), but if Mavs succeed, they confess that it will be a while before they can muster a force again... This likely means that the bulk of their strike force is on Mavs Island now. They offer to trade sceenshots of Mavs and Merlot... We cant really refuse them, as the SAP requires that we share espionage info, but should we also inform them that while we appreciate their screenshot, we really dont need it because our espy is so powerful that we can see all Mavscities and build already?

Team Sirius to me
show details Apr 9 (2 days ago)

First, with regards to CDZ's possible plots, I went to great lengths to not technically even suggest your involvement, but you indeed read between the lines to the paranoia that had engulfed a small part of the team. This and other parts of your recent communication have calmed things to quite a degree.

It's quite encouraging to hear about your espionage activities. We congratulate you on the effect it appears to have had. Although it assists yourselves and CDZ a little more than it assists us, as it is crippling Merlot more than Mavericks, it helps all of us by keeping the technology level of M&M down. It's encouraging to know that your commerce was spent on this worthy activity rather than the selfish wastefulness of, for instance, Quatronia's massive warrior->maceman upgrade.

We thoroughly agree that anything which results in a substantial technology transfer to M&M would be an absolute disaster. It was never our intention to withdraw in such a way as to allow this to occur. We confess to not having planned out exactly how to withdraw in a way that avoids any such risk, primarily because we needed to discuss it with yourselves first, however we do still believe it to be possible.

As far as the technical reading of the treaties go, it is our belief that the ETTT itself, ignoring the PAS (though feel free to call it the PSA) for the moment, has no provisions preventing a team from simply withdrawing. Section 2.2 discusses the means of expelling a team from the treaty, but the process of 2.2 does not preclude the option of voluntary withdrawal. It is only therefore the PAS which prohibits our withdrawal. The may not be a provision in the PAS which allows it to be ignored in specific cases when all parties agree to the course of action, but only because such a provision is surely assumed by default. Therefore, were we to convince you that a particular course of action was wise we could undertake it honorably, even if it were technically in violation of the PAS. Of course if you don't agree then we have no such options.

We're left with a few potential options then.

A) Simply save cash and perform espionage as you suggest, until such time as M&M are crippled to the point of having no potential relevance (which probably means eliminated entirely).

B) Withdraw from the ETTT, with your permission for ignoring 7.3. We may then continue research as we please for the remainder of the time of the ETTT. We believe this carries low to zero risk of a technology transfer to M&M, as it would surely still not be in the interests of the remaining ETTT members to do so any more than it is now. Once M&M are eliminated and the ETTT comes to a natural end, we may then transfer the fruits of our research over to you, giving both of us a substantial head start on Quatronia and CDZ. It would of course require your trust that we would do so, however we would obviously make an explicit formal agreement to with you before beginning on this option. That we would stick to it is a matter of honor. Although Sirius itself may be a transient entity, I know its members take their reputation very seriously - certainly myself in any case.

C) My own original "plan B" - Announce to the ETTT that we refuse to do any further research until such times as the contribution of other teams has caught up to our own. A vocal version of (A) if you will. If effectively ignored this will simply converge into (A). Otherwise it might get us voted off the ETTT (your vote of course having our permission), at which point it effectively converges to (B).

As you may imagine, our preference is for (B), although going through (C) may have its advantages. We hope to convince you of the benefits of (B) to both of us. However if we cannot then we will have to settle for (A).

One issue of relevance to the subject is the amount of time remaining until the elimination of Mavericks and Merlot. If all goes well, we expect Mavericks to be close to eliminated in the next five or six turns. Although if all does not go well it could of course take substantially longer ;) An estimate of the time it would take to eliminate Merlot would assist us. we may consider helping to fund the necessary upgrades, but it would I expect need to be a loan.

Finally, we would happily welcome the Merchant back to our capital on a trade mission. We are willing to trust you in his transfer with no need for a screenshot. Speaking of screenshots, I believe there's been a discussion to exchange Mavericks and Merlot screenshots. I'll send the Mavericks one on as soon as it's ready.

We hope all is well on your shores,
Irgy on behalf of Team Sirius.
 
Sirius teched Corporation,
This was something I forgot 3 times to mention - they had it for 2 or 3 turns already. And I noticed CDZ and Q dont have Economics, which I was going to ask why is that. Good that they gave Corp. to us anyway.

when Railroad is discovered, they will be able to get Mining Inc...
If Sirius are going to leave, I think they will do this before the estimated 11 or 10 turns till it is discovered, so they will not have it at the time and we might be well in better position to get the Mining Inc. if we have GE till then and they leaved the ETTT with option "B" - i.e. they leave and are supposed to tech on their own.

I think that Option "C" will not gonna work, as just imagine what CDZ and Q are going to think of it when they dont know what is this all about in real. They will think that Sirius are leaving the ETTT because they no longer want to be friends with anyone of us - the rest. They will not even allow the possibility that Sirius can live and tech on their own and will think that they in their frustration are going to befriend M&M and give them their techs in attempt to be somewhat the alpha-male in the pack.

So I dont know how this voting will end if it comes to this.

they seem to acknowledge the possibility that Mavs might be actually able to fight them off again
Is I said few turns earlier, they have no the power to kill Mavs that soon, but with the unexpected Q appearance on the main stage, this could possibly been changed. Poor Q - if this attack was not agreed and coordinated, then they are doing this for second time - sacrificing their whole army to give Sirius a chance and to get the reward almost unharmed. Like what happened on Comet - Q landed their army, rushed to fight Mavs careless and in result having their whole army annihilated in vain. (We was too a small part of this, as we lost few units to the last Mavs attack). And then Sirius comes on a white horse and take advantage.

So, we have to make a decission are we with Sirius and if so, how we proceed with their desire to depart of ETTT and how we to get the money to kill off Merlots.
 
This was something I forgot 3 times to mention - they had it for 2 or 3 turns already. And I noticed CDZ and Q dont have Economics, which I was going to ask why is that. Good that they gave Corp.
Yes they gave it to us right away, so it seems they are still liking us as their best buddies, which is good:D I have no idea why CDZ and Q have not requested Econ:confused: Maybe they are waiting for someone to offer it... That is why I always say it is best to take your techs as soon as they are available... Who knows what treachery might be going on behind your back if you don't;)
If Sirius are going to leave, I think they will do this before the estimated 11 or 10 turns till it is discovered, so they will not have it at the time and we might be well in better position to get the Mining Inc. if we have GE till then and they leaved the ETTT with option "B" - i.e. they leave and are supposed to tech on their own.
OK, so I checked the game event log, and only 2 Great Engineers have been born in this game. One was Mavs long, long ago that they obviously used to get Pyramids... the second was for CDZ a few turns ago (1190 AD)... they must either be saving it for Mining Inc, or maybe they used it towards some huge Wonder that still has not finished (like Statue of Liberty).

Anyway, I checked our cities, and we have little hope of getting a Merchant during our GA. The only chance... and this is a longshot, would be to Caste-slave while running an Engineer in Otreta or Myrine (when Forge finishes next turn) or Sangre. These are the only cities that could have any chance of getting an Engineer... And it would still be a slim chance and cost many population points. Otherwise, we must wait for the Ironworks to finish in Vandal, which is well after Railroad is already discovered... I am sure others are thinking this as well and going for their Engineers.
I think that Option "C" will not gonna work...
I agree, Option C is pointless... Why waste breath announcing you will not tech? Just don't do it and you have nothing to worry about. Meanwhile CDZ and Q keep teching, and we can reap some benefits before Sirius dumps them.
Is I said few turns earlier, they have no the power to kill Mavs that soon, but with the unexpected Q appearance on the main stage, this could possibly been changed. Poor Q - if this attack was not agreed and coordinated, then they are doing this for second time - sacrificing their whole army to give Sirius a chance and to get the reward almost unharmed.
Yes, as I said Q are ultimate suckers... Or maybe they are just such zombies that they have no care for this game anymore... maybe that is why they dont ask for Econ.
So, we have to make a decission are we with Sirius and if so, how we proceed with their desire to depart of ETTT and how we to get the money to kill off Merlots.
I love the idea of getting a large loan from them, because then we are guranteed that they do not betray us. No one would be so foolish as to start war with a person who owes them thousands upon thousands in gold. This I think is a better way to security than NAPs or treaties or any promises or agreements.

One last thing to remember... is that Railroad will give the invincible Machine Guns:eek:. Once people have these... Invasion is Impossible before Artillery and Infanty at least and even then it is tough. We might have to wait for Tanks and Planes to fight someone with Machine Guns:(. If M&M got Railroad... All invasions would be impossible.
 
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