I called my report crappy, not my save.
Emperor Cookbook II: Mehmed II
- Thread starter ChromiumL
- Start date
I called my report crappy, not my save.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Ah. That I agree with.
RRRaskolnikov has made the very good point that evaluation of a save depends on the intended strategy of the person making the evaluation. I confess that I don't particularly favour expansion by conquest, so there will probably be saves that look good to people who are ready to make war, but which I don't rate highly.
Cornhog, Ipex and Winston Hughes have all noted the importance of the number and development of cities. This too will depend on the intended strategy. Someone planning a cultural victory will probably make a different evaluation compared with someone planning a domination victory. I suspect that I give less value to city development than some others. This is because those aspects of city development that suit my strategy will already be reflected in the research rate (bpt). On the other hand, I probably undervalue those aspects of city development which don't improve the research rate. As far as the number of cities is concerned, I certainly want to have enough for my strategy - for example nine if I am aiming for a cultural victory. After that, I would value additional cities only if they make a positive contribution.
There are two aspects that I suspect I am not giving sufficient weight to - production and defence. Presumably I should give an improved rating to a save with a good production city and and solid defence.
RJM
Cornhog, Ipex and Winston Hughes have all noted the importance of the number and development of cities. This too will depend on the intended strategy. Someone planning a cultural victory will probably make a different evaluation compared with someone planning a domination victory. I suspect that I give less value to city development than some others. This is because those aspects of city development that suit my strategy will already be reflected in the research rate (bpt). On the other hand, I probably undervalue those aspects of city development which don't improve the research rate. As far as the number of cities is concerned, I certainly want to have enough for my strategy - for example nine if I am aiming for a cultural victory. After that, I would value additional cities only if they make a positive contribution.
There are two aspects that I suspect I am not giving sufficient weight to - production and defence. Presumably I should give an improved rating to a save with a good production city and and solid defence.
RJM
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Voting is
1. W.H. Number of cities, gold, teching education, missed Lit :
:
2. Carl Corey, No metal casting, Pyramids, H.G. aesthetics, all available to build???? Great war set up.
3. Pig Swill, Good tech lead, Number of cities, gold/research rate both good.
Just one final note, I must have gotten a dud save to run from, our some good AI Decisions, and bad from me of course. But to have HANGING GARDENS, PYRAMIDS AND ALL AESTHETICS wonders available at 400 BC, as 1/2 of you seemed to have..is just INCREDIBLE.
I admit, I messed up on hanging gardens, and panicked over Great library, missed the colossus due to that, and didn't settle enough cities. But COME ON!!!!!!! (No hand in face either)
Maybe I went too much on infrastructure and not enough on settlers, I did mess about with one for over 30 turns. I did catch wonder fever, but I have triremes for barb defence (if I ever build one)
I can see cities matter to research/trade, and resources. More land grab, less wonder grab (bad habit, wonder fever).
enough, Well done on selected ones and others as well, some other notes, some are missing forges with metal casting/triremes missing. Cities too small due to whipping (you know who you are
) Some questionable wonders being built? SoZ?? to be honest, I don't really worry about it, I use cultural slider and burn/capture city early on. (but that's me) Many have great tech/trade routes 3+ gold 
BUT having Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, and aesthetics wonders STILL available.... COME ON!!!!! (this time...)
1. W.H. Number of cities, gold, teching education, missed Lit :
:2. Carl Corey, No metal casting, Pyramids, H.G. aesthetics, all available to build???? Great war set up.
3. Pig Swill, Good tech lead, Number of cities, gold/research rate both good.
Just one final note, I must have gotten a dud save to run from, our some good AI Decisions, and bad from me of course. But to have HANGING GARDENS, PYRAMIDS AND ALL AESTHETICS wonders available at 400 BC, as 1/2 of you seemed to have..is just INCREDIBLE.
I admit, I messed up on hanging gardens, and panicked over Great library, missed the colossus due to that, and didn't settle enough cities. But COME ON!!!!!!! (No hand in face either)
Maybe I went too much on infrastructure and not enough on settlers, I did mess about with one for over 30 turns. I did catch wonder fever, but I have triremes for barb defence (if I ever build one)
I can see cities matter to research/trade, and resources. More land grab, less wonder grab (bad habit, wonder fever).
enough, Well done on selected ones and others as well, some other notes, some are missing forges with metal casting/triremes missing. Cities too small due to whipping (you know who you are
) Some questionable wonders being built? SoZ?? to be honest, I don't really worry about it, I use cultural slider and burn/capture city early on. (but that's me) Many have great tech/trade routes 3+ gold BUT having Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, and aesthetics wonders STILL available.... COME ON!!!!! (this time...)
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
My votes:
1 Abegweit
2 WH
3 Pigswill
A lot of other solid rounds but I can vote for only 3...
I hadn't time to make notes like last time sorry for the lack of input... busy week here
Cheers
1 Abegweit
2 WH
3 Pigswill
A lot of other solid rounds but I can vote for only 3...
I hadn't time to make notes like last time sorry for the lack of input... busy week here
Cheers
My thoughts (in no particular order):
Monsterzuma: Good all round, though cities could be larger and better developed.
Kraftster: You needed to expand much faster, and pay more attention to trade value when choosing which techs to research.
RJM: Good to have the Pyramids, and tech is not bad. Should have more cities by now, though (esp. off-continent for the trade routes). Also, your core cities could be larger - grow, then add specialists.
pigswill: Very strong, esp. in tech. A few weaknesses: lost north-east city spot to Persia; no corn/spice city yet; core cities could be larger.
Bleys: Pyramids will be handy (assuming we get it). Expansion and development unspectacular but well handled. Tech not so good, and war against Persia makes this worse (lost trade routes).
Abegweit: Expansion is awesome, and cities are well developed. Tech is strong, esp. relative to the AI. Only criticism is failure to explore and meet last two AIs, but this is easily fixed.
Carl Corey: Strong GP farm, good military, and okay all round. Tech, expansion and development could all be a bit better, though.
RRRaskolikov: Fairly strong all round. Tech good compared to many other saves, but not quite so good relative to the AI. Solid expansion and development, but cities could be larger. SoZ is an odd choice imo.
Corndog: A bit weak in tech (more trading needed?), but otherwise reasonably strong. Not sure about the multi-city wonderspam, though.
King Morgan: Good expansion and development, decent tech, and all civs are met. Not the strongest save, but definitely a contender for a vote or two.
ChromiumL: Very nice on the wonders, and present cities are well developed. However, expansion and tech has suffered quite badly.
IPEX: Similar to Chromium in that wonders and development are good, whilst expansion and tech are weak.
Votes to come...
Edit:
1) Abegweit
2) pigswill
3) King Morgan
Monsterzuma: Good all round, though cities could be larger and better developed.
Kraftster: You needed to expand much faster, and pay more attention to trade value when choosing which techs to research.
RJM: Good to have the Pyramids, and tech is not bad. Should have more cities by now, though (esp. off-continent for the trade routes). Also, your core cities could be larger - grow, then add specialists.
pigswill: Very strong, esp. in tech. A few weaknesses: lost north-east city spot to Persia; no corn/spice city yet; core cities could be larger.
Bleys: Pyramids will be handy (assuming we get it). Expansion and development unspectacular but well handled. Tech not so good, and war against Persia makes this worse (lost trade routes).
Abegweit: Expansion is awesome, and cities are well developed. Tech is strong, esp. relative to the AI. Only criticism is failure to explore and meet last two AIs, but this is easily fixed.
Carl Corey: Strong GP farm, good military, and okay all round. Tech, expansion and development could all be a bit better, though.
RRRaskolikov: Fairly strong all round. Tech good compared to many other saves, but not quite so good relative to the AI. Solid expansion and development, but cities could be larger. SoZ is an odd choice imo.
Corndog: A bit weak in tech (more trading needed?), but otherwise reasonably strong. Not sure about the multi-city wonderspam, though.
King Morgan: Good expansion and development, decent tech, and all civs are met. Not the strongest save, but definitely a contender for a vote or two.
ChromiumL: Very nice on the wonders, and present cities are well developed. However, expansion and tech has suffered quite badly.
IPEX: Similar to Chromium in that wonders and development are good, whilst expansion and tech are weak.
Votes to come...
Edit:
1) Abegweit
2) pigswill
3) King Morgan
There are still a lot of people who haven't voted yet--please vote so that I can tally things up and declare a winner!
Here are my votes:
1st: Winston Hughes--everything is just good. Good cities, good tech, good exploration. The only thing that is unfortunate is that you skipped Literature. But--nobody has build the Great Library yet, so maybe theres still a chance? (As a side note--the AI are acting really weird missing so many good wonders!)
2nd Abegweit--pretty good all around save. I like that there is some preparation for a war with Toka.
3rd: Pigswill--Another good save, though missing the colossus is sorta sad. This save got 3rd only because I really don't like the fact that Persia has such a large presence on the NE of our island. There just aren't many options without declaring war...
That makes the current Tally:
Winston Hughes--10 votes
Pigswill--8 votes
Abegweit--8 votes
King Morgan--2 votes
Carl Corey--2 votes
I will give a few more hours for last minute votes before I tally things up and declare a winner so that we can start up the next round!
Here are my votes:
1st: Winston Hughes--everything is just good. Good cities, good tech, good exploration. The only thing that is unfortunate is that you skipped Literature. But--nobody has build the Great Library yet, so maybe theres still a chance? (As a side note--the AI are acting really weird missing so many good wonders!)
2nd Abegweit--pretty good all around save. I like that there is some preparation for a war with Toka.
3rd: Pigswill--Another good save, though missing the colossus is sorta sad. This save got 3rd only because I really don't like the fact that Persia has such a large presence on the NE of our island. There just aren't many options without declaring war...
That makes the current Tally:
Winston Hughes--10 votes
Pigswill--8 votes
Abegweit--8 votes
King Morgan--2 votes
Carl Corey--2 votes
I will give a few more hours for last minute votes before I tally things up and declare a winner so that we can start up the next round!
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
First - I'm going to go with Abegweit for being good all-around, but the lack of the Great Library is a bummer. I have an irrational love of that wonder. I like that you (somehow) nabbed that northeastern city that fell to Persia in almost everyone else's save. The Mausoleum will help in the near future...
Second - I'm voting for Winston. Good expansion, good development, good science, good infrastructure. You skipped literature completely but can probably go back and grab the GL easily.
Third - And finally, Pigswill. Mainly because of our shared swine name. Everything is solid but I think the Colossus would have helped immensely. We have tons of water tiles here.
On a side note, however, I'm wondering why so many people are gearing up for a war. We have a tech lead and Janissaries, which are killer. Furthermore, we have a pair of rivals who refuse to trade with anyone. The way to deal with them is to let them fall behind and attack later (around ...gunpowder!)
Someone commented on my three wonder grab. It makes perfect sense to me. First, since I have a tech lead, I haven't traded much. I'll backfill later; I don't need the stuff at the moment. I'm heading straight to liberalism with the intention of grabbing nationalism. I'm going to use the marble we have to get the Taj Mahal. That, combined with the Mausoleum will give us a nice long golden age where we can get gunpowder, switch civics and draft a number of Jannisaries to attack Toku and the rest. In fact, it might be easier to ignore Toku at first and go for Cyrus and the city of Susa. We'll always have a tech lead on Toku. He's an idiot. He will, however, have a ton of troops which brings us to the....
...The Statue of Zeus. Long protracted wars can be annoying, but really the SoZ is just a nice bonus since we have ivory. Not to mention that all our opponents are stuck on islands with stacks upon stacks of troops they never had a chance to use. Now, I could build settlers instead, but I figure I have time. We're only talking ~15 turns to build the wonder. I see no reason to waste current resources on troops.
Second - I'm voting for Winston. Good expansion, good development, good science, good infrastructure. You skipped literature completely but can probably go back and grab the GL easily.
Third - And finally, Pigswill. Mainly because of our shared swine name. Everything is solid but I think the Colossus would have helped immensely. We have tons of water tiles here.
On a side note, however, I'm wondering why so many people are gearing up for a war. We have a tech lead and Janissaries, which are killer. Furthermore, we have a pair of rivals who refuse to trade with anyone. The way to deal with them is to let them fall behind and attack later (around ...gunpowder!)
Someone commented on my three wonder grab. It makes perfect sense to me. First, since I have a tech lead, I haven't traded much. I'll backfill later; I don't need the stuff at the moment. I'm heading straight to liberalism with the intention of grabbing nationalism. I'm going to use the marble we have to get the Taj Mahal. That, combined with the Mausoleum will give us a nice long golden age where we can get gunpowder, switch civics and draft a number of Jannisaries to attack Toku and the rest. In fact, it might be easier to ignore Toku at first and go for Cyrus and the city of Susa. We'll always have a tech lead on Toku. He's an idiot. He will, however, have a ton of troops which brings us to the....
...The Statue of Zeus. Long protracted wars can be annoying, but really the SoZ is just a nice bonus since we have ivory. Not to mention that all our opponents are stuck on islands with stacks upon stacks of troops they never had a chance to use. Now, I could build settlers instead, but I figure I have time. We're only talking ~15 turns to build the wonder. I see no reason to waste current resources on troops.
pigswill
fly (one day)
My votes:
Winston Hughes 3pts.
Abegweit 2pts.
Carl Corey 1pt.
Comments on my game. My general approach to research is very much beeline and back-fill through trade (which is why I wanted Glib early). I probably trade too much.
I didn't go for Colossus thinking I'd want astronomy sooner rather than later. In retrospect that was a mistake and something to remember for the future.
I wasn't too bothered about the Persian city because i) We had the resources available elsewhere ii) I prefer to have one major war rather than lots of minor skirmishes.
Winston Hughes 3pts.
Abegweit 2pts.
Carl Corey 1pt.
Comments on my game. My general approach to research is very much beeline and back-fill through trade (which is why I wanted Glib early). I probably trade too much.
I didn't go for Colossus thinking I'd want astronomy sooner rather than later. In retrospect that was a mistake and something to remember for the future.
I wasn't too bothered about the Persian city because i) We had the resources available elsewhere ii) I prefer to have one major war rather than lots of minor skirmishes.
carl corey
Deity
Votes:
1. Winston Hughes - 3pts
2. Abegweit - 2pts
3. pigswill - 1pt
1. Winston Hughes - 3pts
2. Abegweit - 2pts
3. pigswill - 1pt
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
My votes:
Pigswill 3 pts
Winston 2 pts
Carl 1 pt
Pigswill 3 pts
Winston 2 pts
Carl 1 pt
And the final tally is:
Winston Hughes--17 votes
Abegweit--15 votes
Pigswill--12 votes
Carl Corey--4 votes
King Morgan--2 votes
Congrats Winston Hughes!!! We will be playing the next round from your save!
We will be playing the next round until Sunday. This round will end at 1100 AD.
A quick reminder--Please be sure to put your name on your save so we can tell whose is whose!!
Winston Hughes--17 votes
Abegweit--15 votes
Pigswill--12 votes
Carl Corey--4 votes
King Morgan--2 votes
Congrats Winston Hughes!!! We will be playing the next round from your save!
We will be playing the next round until Sunday. This round will end at 1100 AD.
A quick reminder--Please be sure to put your name on your save so we can tell whose is whose!!
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
Hi Cornhog
I really disagree with this... IMO when you have established a dominant position, troops and conquest are the best way to strenghten it even more... more than an additionnal wonder!
Sure Toku is an idiot and he won't do anything... but his land could be used to great effect...
Even for a space race, you are better conquering neighbours...the snowbawling effect is too great!
Congrats on WH for his round! Happy playing to all!
Cheers
I'm just saying that we can accomplish the same task with less troops and less difficultly if we just chill for a second. We're not exactly drowning in hammers either. But we've got a different save, so I guess I'll try a different path!
IPEX-731BA5DD06 said:1. W.H. Number of cities, gold, teching education, missed Lit
ChromiumL said:
Cornhog said:
I'm not going to say that Aesthetics-Literature-GL was a bad move, since pigswill used it to great effect. But I think myself and Abegweit demonstrated that it was by no means necessary on this map.
It's important to note that pigswill got the NE up and running too, and diverted a couple of citizens to work additional scientists (edit: Is this right? Or am I thinking of Carl Corey?), which was needed to make the most of this particular tech-path/wonder. Personally, I didn't fancy investing all that effort when there were so many cities to settle and develop (needing settlers, workers, workboats and garrison units), and when the Colossus offered such a powerful economic boost to the REXing empire.
Don't get me wrong - the GL can be an extremely useful wonder. But its two main uses are to get Academies built in powerful science cities, and to lightbulb on the road to Liberalism. And neither of these things is really necessary when you can REX like a maniac whilst maintaining a fast tech rate.
Some more general thoughts on this round:
*Quite a few players didn't expand fast enough. On many maps, controlled expansion is the correct response to civ4's maintenance system (it was very different in civ3), but in this case it was absolutely the wrong move. Thanks to the GLh, spamming cities (esp. those off-continent ones) made for a much faster tech rate.
*It's easy to neglect city growth, and it can be the stronger move if it means claiming more cities. But this map made it possible to have a decent rate of both 'horizontal' and 'vertical' growth (ie. 'more cities' and 'larger cities'). This meant two things. Firstly, given the number of water tiles to be worked, the Colossus should have been an obvious choice. Secondly, anything that did not feed into growth (of one kind or other) should have taken a lower priority.
*Few players took full advantage of the trading opportunities available on this map. The AI can be an excellent source of techs, resources, and cash. I have the feeling that too many people look for good deals from the AI. These are very rare indeed. But what looks like a bad deal for you (eg. selling a tech for way less than it costs to research) can actually work out okay, since the AI is far too stupid to take full advantage of what you sell to it.
Anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence guys. I honestly think that Abegweit's save was stronger than mine, and I'm pretty embarrassed at how pathetic my report was. But I'm honoured to get the thumbs up from such a great group of players.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
@Winston. I really don't think that there is much to choose between the top half dozen saves (how come Monsterzuma didn't get any votes?). You mentioned pigswill and me. Well, all three have good expansion. You have the best research. He has a nice GP farm and I am well-prepared for war. How do you choose?
I like your game and will be happy to play from it.
I like your game and will be happy to play from it.
@Winston. I really don't think that there is much to choose between the top half dozen saves (how come Monsterzuma didn't get any votes?). You mentioned pigswill and me. Well, all three have good expansion. You have the best research. He has a nice GP farm and I am well-prepared for war. How do you choose?
I like your game and will be happy to play from it.
I came very close to giving Monsterzuma a vote myself, and there were several others in contention. And I hope I didn't give the impression that people played badly this round. It's just that, looking at all the saves, there were some quite simple things that had been exploited by some players, but were missed by others. The general standard of play was very high.
Bleys
Deity
Grats WH.
This is a very strong group of players. I didnt even do a report once I saw a couple of the saves. I also shadowed from my own, and naturally I had a much smoother game, building the GL, having both the NE and the HE being built.
It will be interesting for me to play from a save without the GL. I usually go for it on maps like this, since there is almost always Marble on an island somewhere. Marble has some excellent wonders for a REX style game. MoM + Taj combo, Parth doesnt suck, global type stuff that affect your entire, sprawling empire.
This is a very strong group of players. I didnt even do a report once I saw a couple of the saves. I also shadowed from my own, and naturally I had a much smoother game, building the GL, having both the NE and the HE being built.
It will be interesting for me to play from a save without the GL. I usually go for it on maps like this, since there is almost always Marble on an island somewhere. Marble has some excellent wonders for a REX style game. MoM + Taj combo, Parth doesnt suck, global type stuff that affect your entire, sprawling empire.
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