Emperor Cookbook II: Mehmed II

[ChromiumL]

So, I don't have the time right now (its getting late for me) to make a pretty post for voting. But since we are sorta running late, I figured I should update people on what I think we should probably do and get some discussion going.

I suggest we take a vote (I will make a better post tomorrow), and with that vote, also vote one whether you want to continue another round in this game, or start a new game. If you do want to start a new game--then give some ideas of civs/maps you are interested in trying.

*EDIT*

Here's the pretty listing of submitted saves:

Ipex: Post, Save

Carl Corey: Post, Save

King Morgan: Post, Save

ChromiumL: Post, Save

RJM: Post, Save

Pigswill: Post, Save

Monsterzuma: Post, Save

There are a lot of really good saves in this bunch!

Again--Vote for your top 3 saves, and then vote for whether or not you think we should continue to the next round in this game. I will probably count votes in 2 days or so...

 

[RJM]

Accept capitulation?

Spoiler :

In Monsterzuma's save, Shaka is willing to capitulate. Left to my own devices, I would accept this, but I'd be interested in what others think.

RJM

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@RJM:

Spoiler :

hi , I am in love with vassals usually but here down to one city IIRC, Shaka will not be usefull... imo finishing him is the correct move.

 

[carl corey]

I think there's no more need for spoilers now. Anyway, RJM, in my game Shaka was also down to one city and then built a second. Vassalizing isn't worth much if the AI won't help in any way and it's easier to simply finish him off later. Remember you still get the "we want to join our motherland" unhapiness. Not worth it.

 

[RJM]

I don't know whether it makes any difference to the question of accepting capitulation, but in Monsterzuma's save, Shaka has 4 cities, the smallest of which he will give us. Interestingly (to me at least), if we sign a peace treaty with Cyrus first, Shaka offers us a technology instead of a city. I wonder if that means Shaka regards the tech as more valuable than the city?

RJM

 

[Monsterzuma]

We want the city of shaka's that our troops are standing right next to (2 food resources). If he gives that up, capitulation is a no-brainer. Otherwise, just a few more turns of war.

I'm not sure at this point, but I may recall that shaka has at least one city overseas meaning to eliminate him in full will be a terrible chore. His northern cities don't have food resources so they are hardly worth capturing. These things in mind, capitulation is the right choice in the longer run. (speaking from memory only though so I may be missing things)

Accepting capitulation means we can move our army over to Cyrus' lands sooner so we can take the war to Saladin and Pacal sooner aswell. Reaching Saladin only takes a "bridge" of 1 tile, which I think galleys can safely be used for. Pacal is a different story.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Vassalizing isn't worth much if the AI won't help in any way and it's easier to simply finish him off later. Remember you still get the "we want to join our motherland" unhapiness. Not worth it.

If you're shooting for a conquest or backdoor diplomatic victory, then it nearly always makes sense to accept capitulation once you've taken the cities you want, provided the civ in question won't be able to break free.

It's also worth bearing in mind that you get trade routes with vassals (even when running Merc), access to all their resources (v. nice when you have a relevant corporation), an extra in every city, and a boost to your power rating in the eyes of the other AIs (making them easier to capitulate).

Anyway, I finished round 3 last night. Given the ridiculous tech lead - I have Steel, Economics, and Replaceable Parts; the AI does not yet have Education - and having the most powerful military in the world, I'd say this game is over as a contest.

I haven't looked at the other saves yet - the game crashed when I tried to load IPEX's one, and by then I needed sleep. But from the reports it looks like you guys finished in similarly overpowered positions.

 

[KingMorgan]

Good saves alround. I think I could win easily from any save, even mine

If Winstons save is eliglble i'd vote him top, then Chrom or Monster for second. not decided 3rd yet.

I'd vote to continue, maybe throw it open, pick any save and see who can win the quickest.

 

[ChromiumL]

I am sure most of us will be busier than usual because of the holidays, so why don't we go ahead and take the suggestion of King Morgan...

Lets play from whichever save we want and see who can win the quickest *EDIT* or highest score--feel free to discuss ('spoiler' if necessary) plans/ideas/which save you will use here.

We will take until the 21stish (next Sunday) to Play until you win (or until you get bored). Make reports about when/how you win or whenever you want to discuss something. Then we can start up a new game after the holidays...

I would probably play from Winston's save, but I think mine is close enough that I would rather just stick with it. I usually don't get many conquest wins, but I think that is really the best option here.

 

[RJM]

I continued with my own save, and eventually won a space race victory in 1938. I could have landed in 1936, but I chose to continue building a second engine because I was in the middle of a war and wanted more time. I expect this date can be easily beaten by other types of victory.

RJM

 

[carl corey]

I'm not sure when I'll have the time to play this as I haven't even played IMC III round 1 yet. I'll probably just retire from the Emperor series anyway, as I'm again comfortable enough at this level to not need help to win.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I'm not sure when I'll have the time to play this

I am afraid I am in the same case... I wasn't able to play the last round and the game seems to be won anyways...
Tx to Chronium for hosting this and to all for the discussion and learning experience
see you around!

 

[RJM]

I just played a game of my own on the medium and small setting with Asoka. I won a space race victory in the 1970s - so thanks to all the contributors to this thread who have succeeded in passing on their wisdom to me!

I have a question. On this sort of map, I seem to end up with a large number of cities that have a seafood special and lots of water, but not much land. I can whip buildings as long as I'm in slavery, but eventually I'm forced into emancipation, and then I have a distinct shortage of hammers. How do you folks deal with this problem on this sort of map?

RJM

 

[pigswill]

Go for communism, build the Kremlin, get democracy (or pyramids) adopt Universal Suffrage and buy the infrastructure and units you need.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Another solution is workshop spam after chemistry and communism...

 

[pigswill]

Workd well on land, not so well in cities with seafood and water tiles.

 

[Roxlimn]

Play Dutch and put Dikes in your cities. Alternatively, build the Angkor Wat and build Temples and Monasteries. Neither are really solutions, though - they just kind of ameliorate the hammer lack. US is still your definitive solution.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Pigswill: workshops are relatively more powerfull on low production maps ... that's at least my opinion

Cheers

 

[Bleys]

The thing to keep in mind is that just because your production sucks, it doesnt mean you have "low production". Its all relative. The AIs are stuck with the same crappy production sites that you are, but as the human, you can usually leverage your land better than they do. Ever watch an AI on a watery map trying to turn a city toward "production"? Towns get plowed under for farms and Workshops, then, when they want to go back toward "commerce", the cottages get re-built on top of the Workshops. Seriously, I think the AI handles their land even more poorly on water maps than they do on regular continent style maps.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't know whether it makes any difference to the question of accepting capitulation, but in Monsterzuma's save, Shaka has 4 cities, the smallest of which he will give us. Interestingly (to me at least), if we sign a peace treaty with Cyrus first, Shaka offers us a technology instead of a city. I wonder if that means Shaka regards the tech as more valuable than the city?

RJM

These are way too slow paced for me to participate in meaningfully typically, but I glanced in here and as I've a lot of experience with war extortion (why might that be...) I felt I'd lend some insight.

Yes, the AI definitely values tech more than cities. If you took peace with cyrus and then went for that city instead of the tech, you'd get it.

This is more typically applied on the defensive though. An AI will often demand a city, but instead of giving it the city you can hand it a tech, often a quite cheap one. I've had the AI demand a substantial city of mine (or one I captured) for peace, only to replace it with 100-200 gold successfully!

I think this was done to prevent flagrant abuse of early warmongering. Basically, if it prioritized techs less than cities, you could truly just troop spam it and extort tech left and right after doing some damage each time. There are a lot of games with a diplomatic scapegoat or at least a target nobody you're afraid of is above pleased with. This would allow for repeated DoW "teching", and it would be extremely overpowering. Even as it is, you can do a substantial amount of teching on higher levels through extortion early in the game, often enough to quell the side effects of overexpansion (extort alphabet at least, possibly code of laws even! With just alphabet you can build research in your cities to get currency or code of laws, and with 10 cities in the BCs this goes amazingly fast).

Imagine if it didn't make an effort to block this. You spawn next to mansa or some other pushover, constantly take a city, tech for peace, take a city, etc. If you're isolated with this poor soul, it could do all your teching for you and even build infrastructure while you take it! Then once you're big enough, take over the teching yourself.

This IS possible already to a lesser extent, and can be brutally overpowered on marathon but remains decent on other speeds.