Emperor Cookbook IV: Suryavarman II

[ChrisShaffer]

Well, I'm a bit surprised. I thought RJM's save was better than mine.

I didn't expand to the southern islands because I wouldn't normally have built a city on the iron without foreknowledge of the culture bridge to the islands. I definitely did like the "national park" city someone founded to the north.

In regard to production, I really like forges and workshops. A lot. I also spiked production quite a bit during the golden age by working hammer tiles and starving the cities a bit.

edit - d'oh, I see now that you can see the southern islands in the 400AD save by looking at food production on the ocean tiles. I also see I should have worked some plain citizens on the northeast desert island city to build the lighthouse, since I switched out of slavery. Well, I guess that's why we're playing this game - to learn some new things.

 

[ChromiumL]

Yup! I tend to replay these rounds over again after I am done, trying to replicate different people's strategies, and I have really been learning a ton (in the first few cookbooks I did, I don't think anyone ever voted for my saves). I've never really used workshops, so looking at your save and really thinking about how I could maximize both size and production was really handy.

Its also appreciated that you didn't try to use foreknowledge of those islands... I think I would probably build a city on the iron eventually simply because there were really very few other spots (and if I don't settle there, someone else probably will). Plus--with the great lighthouse its practically free to build. I didn't know there was a way to see that there was a connection before the city was there--I'm going to have to look at that...

 

[RJM]

I didn't expand to the southern islands because I wouldn't normally have built a city on the iron without foreknowledge of the culture bridge to the islands. ...

d'oh, I see now that you can see the southern islands in the 400AD save by looking at food production on the ocean tiles.

Congrats - I thought your save was clearly the best.

I didn't expand south for the same reason. Why didn't I think of looking at food!

RJM

<edit> You (or someone else) needs to explain this to me. Some of the tiles show 1 food and 1 commerce, and some are simply described as ocean. How do I use this to conclude that there is land nearby?

<further edit> Is this right? An ocean tile that can be within the fat cross of a city shows food resources but if it can't be in a city's fat cross it doesn't show food.

 

[RJM]

OK, let me make sure I've got this. The attached screen shot on which I've scribbled is from King Morgan's AD 400 save. The two circled tiles are showing food, but cannot be in the fat cross of a city on the iron tile. Therefore they must be in the fat cross of an invisible land tile. This cannot be any of the tiles I've marked with a cross because if it were, one of the visible tiles would be coastal and have 2 commerce. The possible land tiles have been marked with a tick. All of these sites would have a coastal tile reachable from the cultural boundary of a city on the iron site after 1 expansion. However, at this stage it is possible that any of these potential land tiles could be in the cultural boundary of an AI civ.

RJM

<edit> I've just noticed there's an ocean food tile 3 east of the iron site that I didn't circle. I don't think it changes the argument though.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Yes, I think you have it correct RJM.

 

[KingMorgan]

I'm not sure i understand your logic RJM - Monday morning confusion

I think your right that there is a way of determining because of the ocean food resource. I knew there was land there because you can see a slight lighter tint on the far edge of the ocean tiles, means they border fogged coastal tiles, so with a culture pop you could access this coast.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I personally can't see the lighter tint, but I definitely can see the food/commerce on the tiles. Basically, if there is food/commerce on a tile you can't reach, it must be within the BFC of some other city.

 

[KingMorgan]

No. in this case we know for sure that food/commerce is not in a BFC, i think you mean where food/commerce is displayed then it is adjacent to a coastal tile.

 

[carl corey]

I personally can't see the lighter tint, but I definitely can see the food/commerce on the tiles. Basically, if there is food/commerce on a tile you can't reach, it must be within the BFC of some other city.

Click on the "bare map" button (above the minimap). It "lights up" the fogged squares as if you could see into them and makes it much easier to recognize that lighter tint.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

King Morgan, I think we're talking at cross purposes and actually saying the same thing. You can tell if a tile is coastal if it has 2 commerce. If it has 1 food and one commerce, then it is not coastal - but it must be within the BFC of a potential city placed on an existing land tile.

 

[RJM]

No. in this case we know for sure that food/commerce is not in a BFC, i think you mean where food/commerce is displayed then it is adjacent to a coastal tile.

It's not actually in the BFC of any city; but there is a land tile which (if it had a city) would have it in its BFC. Adjacent to a coastal tile is not enough; if the tile is 2 diagonally from the land, the food and commerce do not display. For example look at the diagonal north east of Ergili. The tile three along does not show food or commerce, even though it is adjacent to a coastal tile.

RJM

 

[RJM]

Click on the "bare map" button (above the minimap). It "lights up" the fogged squares as if you could see into them and makes it much easier to recognize that lighter tint.

Either my eyesight or my monitor is not up to this; I can't see the lighter colour. But nevermind, whatever method you use to notice the land is good so long as it works.

RJM

 

[carl corey]

Huh, I'm not sure what happens when the layout is like this:

coast - ocean - ocean - coast

There might not be a light tint between the two ocean tiles, I haven't checked that. However there is one between each coast and ocean. So:

coast - ocean - coast

certainly has lighter tints at the edges of the ocean that touch the coastal tiles. Before you settle nearby and expand your borders you won't be able to directly see that second coast.

The part about ocean tiles that couldn't be reached from the visible land but still have food on them is a different thing. It also means that you'll need more than one border pop to reach the other continent in this case, as pre-Caravels you can't travel through ocean tiles that are not in one of your cities' cross.

Both situations help locate other lands, but in different ways.

 

[RJM]

The part about ocean tiles that couldn't be reached from the visible land but still have food on them is a different thing. It also means that you'll need more than one border pop to reach the other continent in this case, as pre-Caravels you can't travel through ocean tiles that are not in one of your cities' cross.

Both situations help locate other lands, but in different ways.

In this case the invisible land can be reached by a single border pop since we don't actually pass through the ocean tile outside our BFC. We can get to a coastal tile from an ocean tile that is in the BFC of a city on the iron tile.

RJM

 

[Gumbolt]

Yep thats cleared that up. I think this exact same debate took place on the French immortal cookbook?

 

[RJM]

Spoiler :

I began by cranking the research rate up to 100%. This meant that a bank would have no impact, so I switched a lot of hammer tiles to scientists. I also traded for theology and switched the iron trade to Monty.

After discovering steel I researched economics (for the free merchant). From then on my research was pretty haphazard - anything that looked useful and wasn't scientific method or corporation. After discovering constitution I switched to free market, free religion and representation. Eventually, I had to learn scientific method (by trading) and went for biology to increase the food from my farms. I picked up physics on a trade.

The land to the south was visible, so I explored it and founded a city to gain access to horses.

I lost Notre Dame to Gilmagesh. I'm not sure whether this was forseeable. If so, it probably would have been better to have switched production earlier. OTOH, I got some money.

Halfway through the turnset, Cyrus decided to get rid of 4 of his units with a pointless amphibious attack. Eventually he agreed to peace for a tech that I would have given him if he'd asked. A few turns later, he offered a defensive pact - go figure!

RJM

 

[Gumbolt]

Erm I just lost at 1305 due to Ap win by AI.

Thats me out for this round.

Theology and change of civic I suggest people!!!

 

[RJM]

Spoiler :

Erm I just lost at 1305 due to Ap win by AI.

Thats me out for this round.

Theology and change of civic I suggest people!!!

Bummer

Can you remember who gave Ragnar the other votes he needed?

RJM

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler :

Bummer

Can you remember who gave Ragnar the other votes he needed?

RJM

Spoiler :

It was strange. The only option to vote was Ragnar or abstain. Looking at Ap screen he already had 158 votes so only needed 16 or so more votes.

Could of avoided this if I had switched civics. Didnt clock the Ap was so close to victory.

 

[RJM]

Spoiler :

It was strange. The only option to vote was Ragnar or abstain. Looking at Ap screen he already had 158 votes so only needed 16 or so more votes.

Could of avoided this if I had switched civics. Didnt clock the Ap was so close to victory.

Spoiler :

A rather interesting lesson. I would normally want to get the AP religion and spread it for the hammer benefits. I certainly would not have considered switching civics to prevent the spread of the AP religion. In this game I wasn't worried about the AP because Ragnar had a distinctly minority religion. I'd forgotten (if I ever knew) about only needing a single city in each civ to trigger a possible win.