Empire Strikes Back Opinion?

[Synobun]

I am professionally trained in storytelling. As far as I know, you program things for a bank. Not sure you're in a position to be talking down to people about the complex mechanics of storytelling. Your opinion is your opinion, there's no need to pretend you're objectively right.

 

[warpus]

Where am I talking down to anyone? And are you saying that we should all stop posting on this forum completely unless we happen to have a phD in the topic at hand?

Did you also miss where I repeatedly said that it's fine if somebody disagrees with me, and that it's possible to enjoy these movies in other contexts? Much like I do myself?

So far nobody has taken up the task of analyzing the prequels from a storytelling pov in order to argue against any of my points. I don't expect anyone to do that, but I am confident that it would not be easy to do so. If it were easy, it seems that it would have already been attempted anyhow.

I also do not work at a bank, which is quite beside the point as well.

I stick to my point that the prequels were not attempts to tell a well executed & coherent story, and that's a big reason why they fail as such. They were designed to "show us what happened that lead up to the events of Episode 4". In that capacity they succeed decently enough. i.e. as a sort of documentary that show us what happened. When you watch them from that pov, they can be quite entertaining (although episode 1 just seems so bland overall even from that pov)

I've started watching the Clone Wars cartoons, and the storytelling in the episodes I've seen so far is far superior to anything in the prequels.

 

[r16]

episode lV gave Lucas an almost heart attack . He really doesn't like talking about it but people might have heard that he also had a divorce . And of course the Prequel hate made it certain that people would read web stories about the surprising warmth and humanity and whatnot of the original movies were not exactly the doing of George ... Episode l is more of a child's thing , somewhat because of the actors , adds some racing scenery , provides PR for Lucasarts because Hollywood will still need CGl (and it is good money , because Lucas has not forgotten the feud between the young directors of his generation and the Hollywood elites and stuff ended basically with him selling Pixar for basically nothing and getting laughed at about it , too . Episode l wants to shake away interest and jealousy and stuff . We have this long running thing about some blue coloured slabs to ward off evil eyes , you know , hardly applicable to the groundbreaking movie making as the 21st Century dawned . ı failed to see the Phantom Menace in theatre , for reasons . The Attack of the Clones was cool and would have been cooler , you know , all the cartoony love affair taking place ... And the prequels ended with a very high note .

disney's lot started safely , aping A New Hope with better visuals and more . lf Luke had the Force and the experience of hunting womp rats , to deliver a bomb down the smokestack , Poe in one single curve shot 9 different targets , from TlE fighters to a single bolt on the chest of a Stormtrooper . ı knew ı wouldn't exactly like Disney's from that moment on but all hail the Glorious Face ... Even the abject mockery of the heros of a past generation (namely ours) delivered through her with Rey calling the Kessel Run one of 14 or so parsecs , so funny through the lenses of Team Abrams (Johnson and the said) was super cool and will remain , because Harrison Ford still rocked as Han Solo ...

disney then went onto new depths of misery . lnsulting techo freaks who owned with every Visual Dictionary with 5 minutes of interstellar travel and this and that . Disney had a guaranteed market , and yes there are no more Visual Dictionaries , because they cost money , the cross sections of stuff , cutting into their profits , while they can just peddle things from the movies . They are actually famously stealing fanart .

even all that argument of Rey as a Marie Sue . lnstead of supporting trolls who first called her as such and other trolls who then went on to demolish the old on the basis of equality . While the Star Wars basic premise really allows a tiny girl to kick the backside of much bigger males , because Force does what it does ... More fans would have enjoyed a triology with less PR and spending more on it , too .

 

[warpus]

And of course the Prequel hate made it certain that people would read web stories about the surprising warmth and humanity and whatnot of the original movies were not exactly the doing of George .

Yeah, I've heard that I believe it was his wife who acted as master editor, pretty much, saying "No" to some of his ideas, and taking his ideas and pulling out the elements that would lend themselves to a strong story. That's how we ended up with Lucas' ideas in a well told story that pretty much follow classic tropes to a t. Specifically the hero's journey trope. She (or whoever else) took all of Lucas' ideas and molded them in a way that would result in a well told story. It worked.

For the prequels he had a bunch of yes men/women, and nobody really trying to take all of his ideas to try to sort of forge a successful story that goes from A to B out of it. That's why the prequels feel like a documentary - they show us what happened, but not using traditional storytelling mechanisms. So you have a successful thing, but not a successful story. Lucas was more concerned with showing us how events lead up to episode 4, rather than trying to find a story in his ideas, and telling it like a traditional story.

Is any of that really that controversial? It was only after the clone wars cartoons came out that people started "admitting" that the prequels were actually not that bad. Yes, from what I've seen of these cartoons so far, they tell stories from that time period very well. There is proper character development and traditional storytelling mechanisms drive everything. The prequel movies never did, but these cartoons add meat to the story that was never there, which in turns make the movies better in retrospect. But on their own, as a story..

 

[Patine]

Yeah, I've heard that I believe it was his wife who acted as master editor, pretty much, saying "No" to some of his ideas, and taking his ideas and pulling out the elements that would lend themselves to a strong story. That's how we ended up with Lucas' ideas in a well told story that pretty much follow classic tropes to a t. Specifically the hero's journey trope. She (or whoever else) took all of Lucas' ideas and molded them in a way that would result in a well told story. It worked.

For the prequels he had a bunch of yes men/women, and nobody really trying to take all of his ideas to try to sort of forge a successful story that goes from A to B out of it. That's why the prequels feel like a documentary - they show us what happened, but not using traditional storytelling mechanisms. So you have a successful thing, but not a successful story. Lucas was more concerned with showing us how events lead up to episode 4, rather than trying to find a story in his ideas, and telling it like a traditional story.

Is any of that really that controversial? It was only after the clone wars cartoons came out that people started "admitting" that the prequels were actually not that bad. Yes, from what I've seen of these cartoons so far, they tell stories from that time period very well. There is proper character development and traditional storytelling mechanisms drive everything. The prequel movies never did, but these cartoons add meat to the story that was never there, which in turns make the movies better in retrospect. But on their own, as a story..

I still don't think you grasp just what the Prequels were actually saying, and what they were about, and you're thus viewing them constantly through the wrong lens, and applying the wrong standards of judgement.

 

[Synobun]

Where am I talking down to anyone? And are you saying that we should all stop posting on this forum completely unless we happen to have a phD in the topic at hand?

I don't know how anyone could take this part of your post as anything but condescending:

"but if you analyze the prequel trilogy from a storytelling point of view, you would be hard pressed to disagree with my assessment. What the hell is a storytelling point of view? Well, have you ever taken a movie film critique sort of class in university? That's what I mean, an academic sort of analysis of the story, the characters, and the execution of whatever tropes are used. Do I need to contrast this with movies in which the story-telling was executed rather well? Episode 4 got it right, it's essentially just that classic hero's journey tale."

I don't think people need a PhD to post about something. It's totally fine to have opinions. You just get into murky territory when you get down on your knee, put a hand on our shoulder, call us champ, and then explain to us how storytelling works in critique. Not only does it imply that to disagree means we're playing checkers while you're playing chess, but it also implies we're just drooling simpletons who need our hands held while you use Objectivity to steer us back to the light. I mean, you say that it's okay for us to disagree, but only if we're operating under a different context. There's a clear statement that you think you're objectively correct and you're only letting us be wrong if we're in a different element than you are.

I also do not work at a bank, which is quite beside the point as well.

But you said the bank managers get mad when you don't take your vacation time.

 

[r16]

the Prequels HAD to suck as it was . You are still following the mainstream narrative as preferred by the said Hollywood elites ... Lucas learned it like the hard way that he was something like a droid devoid of emotions and he either had to live it through in person (like the often mentioned American Graffiti which had the test audiences in a state of bliss) or trust somebody else . Empire Strikes Back had a different director and it ended up real cool and yet a lot of gripe about the Return of the Jedi . Lucas made like a lot more money with working other people , too . Once again Carrie Fisher to be mentioned , like another victim of the Star Wars breaking every record in history . Not that ı have actually followed her out of SW but ı imagine a lot of people would object to her being defined as a yes person .

 

[warpus]

I don't know how anyone could take this part of your post as anything but condescending:

Really? I do think you are reading into it too much. But I appreciate that perspective, if that's what you really think.

I don't think people need a PhD to post about something. It's totally fine to have opinions. You just get into murky territory when you get down on your knee, put a hand on our shoulder, call us champ, and then explain to us how storytelling works in critique. Not only does it imply that to disagree means we're playing checkers while you're playing chess, but it also implies we're just drooling simpletons who need our hands held while you use Objectivity to steer us back to the light. I mean, you say that it's okay for us to disagree, but only if we're operating under a different context. There's a clear statement that you think you're objectively correct and you're only letting us be wrong if we're in a different element than you are.

The thing is that nobody has as of yet argued against my points at all. That's why I had to go back and explain that I am talking of a specific sort of analysis of the prequels, so that my commentary can be better understood.

I do not assume anyone is a simpleton, but I assume some readers might have misunderstood my point. (Since it hasn't been addressed yet)

My phD comment was in response to you saying I have no business commenting on this since I work as a programmer.

 

[Synobun]

The thing is that nobody has as of yet argued against my points at all. That's why I had to go back and explain that I am talking of a specific sort of analysis of the prequels, so that my commentary can be better understood.

I do not assume anyone is a simpleton, but I assume some readers might have misunderstood my point. (Since it hasn't been addressed yet)

Personally, I just don't want to bother getting into extended arguments about Star Wars anymore. It's too taxing. To respond to your points would require returning the same number of words, or likely more, and I dunno... I just don't want to.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

I could have sworn there was already a specific thread for Star Wars-related topics...

But, then again, it's probably best the past few pages of "discussion" aren't mucking up that thread.

 

[Patine]

I could have sworn there was already a specific thread for Star Wars-related topics...

But, then again, it's probably best the past few pages of "discussion" aren't mucking up that thread.

That's harsh!

 

[warpus]

Personally, I just don't want to bother getting into extended arguments about Star Wars anymore. It's too taxing. To respond to your points would require returning the same number of words, or likely more, and I dunno... I just don't want to.

Fair enough. I usually don't care to either, but during a pandemic you get bored. If I was condascending at any point then I apologize. If it helps, maybe read all my posts in SW threads with the voice or darth vader... or wait, maybe an arrogant jedi would be better.

 

[Takhisis]

I've started watching the Clone Wars cartoons, and the storytelling in the episodes I've seen so far is far superior to anything in the prequels.

Do you mean the ones from c. 2005 directed by Tartakovsky?

 

[warpus]

Nah, the newer ones. I remember the older ones, but never watched them either

 

[r16]

well ı happen to be the biggest George Lucas apologist you people will encounter

and like how cool it would be for my word to carry if the Disney triology had not proven how it was ever possible to fail or something with a Star Wars movie .