Enders Game 1: The Training Game Competition - Team 1

I haven't opened the game so forgive me if I'm wrong. Looking at the map I'm thinking it's possible to get Moscow to make workers at a 1 per turn rate!?!?

There are 4BGs a cow and a wheat. We need 10spt and 10fpt.
As is we have mined the BG and irrigated the cow/wheat.
That is
cow=1s, 5f
wheat=5f
BG=2s, 2f * 4=8s, 8f.
Capital=1s,2f
Total = 10s, (12f eaten) + 8f.

We need two more food to grow per turn.

Irrigating 2 of the four BG makes our surplus 8s, 10f. Not enough shields but growth in 1 turn.

If the added citizen can also be assigned to a >=2s tile (like a mined hill) we will get the 10shields needed for the worker. Presto, 1 worker/turn. Not sure which tiles were irrigated since SHard posted no screen shot but I think the priority for moscow worker turns would be mine the hill and then irrigate 2 of the BG. Then setup the worker factory!
 
I will look into this right shortly ControlFreak. If possible it would be a godsend for our worker problems.

Grimjack
 
The trick would be getting the governor to assign the right tile at growth, but I think with sheild emphasis and the +10food already, it should pick the mined hill.
 
Couldn't resist a small teaser:

Ivan The Terrible,
Peter The Great

Grimjack

( On turn 5, and going. )
 
Guess we really should have had that discussion of the Ideal Place for the FP. The rushed Courthouse now seems like it only allows the FP to be built somewhere else. What other wonder would we really like?
 
Novgorod is really a no-brainer for the FP, the rushed courthouse being irrelevant. The area will be lush once we clear some jungle and it immediately elevates our outer cities in that area to first-ring status. That area is much better land than the former-Viking area. Not sure what wonder we want to rush. Maybe Leo's or Sun Tzu (if it is still around). Let's not build JS Bach because it will change the game more than I would like since it is a TDG.
 
My vote is for Leos because we're already on the upgrade path. However, at the rate Grimjack is getting them, saving a leader would be :smoke: Build Sun Tsu's now and get another leader for Leo's.:)
 
I think leaders are too precious to "waste" them, expecting to get another one soon. Check out some of the reports from the recent Always War Epic (number 27 I think?) and see how some players had dozens of Elite victories without a leader. I also think Leo's is much more worthwhile than Sun Tzu's since our cities should be able to build barracks rather quickly once they get to size 4-6, but half-priced troop upgrades will let us upgrade our defensive troops as well as our offensive ones.
 
I agree that Leo's is the one for the second leader. My comments about Suns and another leader were strictly tongue-in-cheek.
 
Speaker,

Check out Sirian's analysis of Sun Tzu's versus Leo's in Prod; his comments are pretty interesting and, I think, a good way to evaluate which wonder is more valuable for your particular situation. Let me know what you think...

JMB
 
Start to familiarize myself with the game. Begin by looking at research.
We have just started a min science gambit on Theology. While it is a must have tech, it is also one the AIs really really like. We are powerful enough that a 70 % research will get it for us in just 10 turns. Same amount of research would get us Engineering in 9 or Chivalry in 8. We would have a moderate chance of getting a monopoly on Chivalry, but I do not think we would want that tech until we have a large load of HOrsemen. Knights are an expensive build. I will probably go min research on Engineering, as we have libraries coming online soon that would make research more efficient.
Just check AIs before committing myself. Find that Alexander of the greeks would give us two workers for 150 gold and Currency. Deal. Oo, NIce, He gets Engineering as his free tech. WONder if we can afford it, and wonder if theer is something out there to get us back the price of it. I assume someone of the AIs almost all of whom are out of Ancient ages are researching Theology, and I stop research. ( Will see if lone scientist in a backwoods cabinet can make some progress. )
I will wait for engineering to become a twofer or threefer and start a prebuild for Leos in our best shield city.
We can coax Engineering out of Alex for Monotheism, Republic, Theology and all our gold. I think this is a bit much, as I cannot get anything other than gpt back from teh other civs.

If Kiev and St Petersburg are to become powerhouses, Granaries would speed up this process, since we do not have enough workers for them to grow fast. Switch to granaries.

Rush the libraries in MOscow, Sevastapol and Sverdlovsk, so I can start making some workers again. Rush it in Vladivostok also, because it is cheap. Also in Trondheim. This city has great food potential. ( Compared to our jungle cities. ) Will use it to make workers once lib is finished. Also, finally rush granary in Sevastapol. Send a swordsman I found in Sverdlovks on an intercept ( by way of Dnepropetrovsk, got move four out of him. ) Rush the Courthouse in Novgorod.
Wake a worker irrigating near Trondheim. He will join the road crews instead. Odense is set to worker.

IBT: Celtish settler/spear pair retreats. Cannot have that, that is our slaves... Some warrior/archer pair is to our north as well. LeaderBait.
MOscow Library->Settler. Trondheim Library->Worker, Novgorod Courthouse->Forbidden Palace (67). Sevastapol Granary->Worker. Sverdlovsk LIbrary->Worker,
Vladivostok LIbrary->WOrker

130BC(1) Eburacum is autorazed after our swordsmen kill off the two spears. ( No losses. ) We capture a worker at least. Time for a quick settler.
The dilemma, send our workers to improve the last couple of squares in our core, or send them to start clearing the jungle. *shrug* Will try to do both, so as not to lose to many worker turns moving on roads.
Those workers already in core improves core, workers at borders clear jungle, with priority on thos jungle sectors near our core. Capture two slaves by killing a spear guarding a settler.
Fishing with our elite swords against a warrior. :band: :beer:
Ender1_Grim5.jpg

Ivan the Terrible comes along just as we start to build a second Palace. He will be there for the opening day. To bad it is lots of jungle before he can get there.
Promote a horseman to elite on another warrior. I honestly think Forbidden Palace is better for us than SunTzu. If it had been an early Leader, so Pyramids had been out there, then it would have been a hard choice, but Forbidden Palace will
help immensely.
Checking Diplomacy, I see China is behind and have somehow acquired some gold. I will trade them Monotheism for their gold. Monotheism to China for 160 gold. Engineering has been traded around a bit, and Greece has catched up in tech. No matter, I will wait for brokerage, or some 6 turns more. Need Engineering so I can see when invention comes on the table.
MM Odessa for an extra coin. ( Yes, you may call me a miser :) ) Shave three turns off of Marketplace in Minsk at the cost of some growth. Minsk does not have any aqueducts, so growth is not really important at size 6.

IBT: Sign a RoP with the greeks to get rid of the annoying message while exploring their shores. This could probably be renegotiated for some money since we have a larger area than them.
Notice that Celts have a RoP with Vikings, as they are using their roads to great effect. Luckily our horse retreated from the archer attack.
Moscow Worker->Worker, MM Moscow to +10 fpt. Unfortunately we will only get +6 Shields per turn. ( or 9 with a mined hill after growth.) But we ought to be able to make three workers every four turns. I set it for 10 shields instead of 10 food.
Egypt starts SunTzu.

110BC(2) Ivan is a true hero, and builds himself a Palace in Novgorod. Rush worker in Vladivostok. No new techs on the stage. Kill a Celtish warrior.

IBT: Moscow worker->Worker. We complete Forbidden Palace in Novgorod. Set to Barracks. ( Lots of shields, and little food. Time to build something. ) Odense, worker->Worker
Vladivostok worker->Worker Egyptians change their mind, they now build Hanging Gardens. As do the Ottomans. English Complete the Great Lighthouse. Greeks start SunTzu.

90BC(3): Remove the second warrior from our core cities. They are sent to jungle cities to relieve the swordsmen guarding these interior cities. Swordsmen are needed at the next front.
Our income has jumped from 63 to 85 gold per turn. Rush Granary in St Petersburg so it is finished before growth.
Buy worker and 31 gold from Ottomans for Republic. Wonder a bit why the Ottomans are furious with us.

IBT: Celts show up with four horsemen and a warrior near Yakutsk
Trondheim grows due to culture. Moscow worker->worker, Kiev Granary->Horseman ( will be at ten shields after growth.)
Celts start Hanging gardens, and The Chinese to. Would be nice to fish out a leader now and kill SunTzu.

70Bc(4) Move workers to jungles. Do the roading first, since I would like to save teh 20 gpt our 10% lux costs us. ( Roading to gems.) veto that as I discover we already have roaded gems. Set workers to clear instead.
Scandinavians will poach jungle from us. Should probably have rushed Moldes library as well, so jungle would have been covered in our culture. Very well, can use their city as marker for where rubber or coal is :)
A Celtish settler/warrior pair steps out of the fog right next to our elite sword :). Rush a settler in Trondheim. He will cover a gap at the former Celtish city.
Nice settlers give us two new slaves.
And then there were two,
Ender1_Grim6.jpg
as our Elite horseman finds another hero withing our ranks. Peter the Great is sent home to build Sun Tzus. Hurry a Granary in Kiev so it can build SunTzus next turn.
Shift the scientist from Odense to Bergen. Still do not believe I will get the tech, but just for safety sake. It is not like a SCientist in a corrupt city costs us anything.
Deciding what to do with this settler takes some thinking. I can see three options for him. ( First was a no brainer.)
1) Build an army to enable Heroic Epic, and even better chances of leaders
2) Rush SunTzus. There are only two wonders on the table right now, and if we can kill the cascade we would have an excellent chance of getting Leos with a prebuild.
3) Rather be safe than sorry, and save leader for Leos.


IBT: Our Heroic Horsemen are unfortunately exposed and killed. Trondheim, settler->worker. Kiev Granary -> SunTzu. Sverdlovsk, worker->worker

50BC(5) While thinking on how to use leader, I sell the courthouse I rushed for a couple of hundred coins for 10 fresh coins. Having thought about it, I do want to be safe. It wold hurt a lot to miss out on Leos.
Instant barracks in every city is very very useful, but it is hard ( read expensive ) to investigate the cities building SunTzus to see if building it would break the cascade. If we did not break the cascade we may very well miss Leos,
and if it is one wonder during Middle ages you want, with the upgrade tactics, it is Leos. I will Let Peter stew in Kiev until we can build Leos.
In order to get Invention as fast as possible I will research it ASAP. ( To minimize period we cannot get leaders.)
Egypt,Greece and England all want our treasury and 11 gpt for Engineering. We can self research it in 5 turns at a cost of 160 per turn. Even at fourth it is cheaper to buy.
I trade Engineering and 40 gold from Egypt for 35 gpt. ( Likely this will help keep her from going at war with us for the next 20 turns.) Quick check reveals that INvention is NOT out there.
Ouch, it is expensive to research. I can get invention in 15 by going -29 gpt. This may be a bit too much, as I didn't statr the research right away. Some AIs may very well research this.
Alea Jacta Est som någon sade en gång i tiden.
Watch in horror as a regular warrior on a hill redlines one of our elite swordsmen.

IBT: Moscow Worker->worker ( At size 5, I cannot produce worker in one turn, I set it on 4 spt and 10 fpt instead. This will make a full food bin at size 6 and a worker in two. )
Seavstapol Worker->worker ( Produces one every fourth turn. )

30BC(6) Lots of workers are now chopping jungle. Trying to keep them in multiples of three wherever I can. Clearing before roading unless there already is a road.
This turn I do not even get a promotion. Celts finally sees reason, and goes to peace with us. They even chip in their three gold for it. They would not chip in Monarchy, but I didn't want it anyway.
Establish Embassy in Istanbul, and that is one culture rich city. at 30BC they have a whopping 481 culture. They have temple,library,cathedral,colloseum and Pyramids to top it off. We had better watch that city should the game take a long time.
They also have two iron and horses as well as Ivory. City produces 13 shields per turn, and have plenty of food at size 7.

IBT: Weird, nada. Nothing. Ingenting.

10BC(7) Start some long term projects with leftover slave workers. ( Doesn't help being the tenth worker in a clearing gang. )
Grant Ottomans ENgineering for a worker and Monarchy. ( Didn't want to part with the 130 gold worker was going to cost.)
I put Sevastapol on a settler instead of worker. See if I can poach something somewhere.

IBT: Moscow worker->worker, Beijing Library->Marketplace. ( Thinking we need money real bad, and there are lots of rivers here. ) Note to myself, send a jungle clearer here, so the river jungle can be cleared.
St Petersburg Horseman->HOrseman. Kiev Horseman->Temple. ( Need happines. ) Odessa Aqueduct->HOrseman. MM for food again.

10AD(8) Found Kursk on the spot where a Celtish city stood. Production set to worker. During diplomacy notice that Theology is out. I do nto know where all the money went. The usual three suspects are all in possession of Theology.
Lets hope our research into invention pays off.
After much fumbling and thinking, I finally discover that ControlFreak was right, irrigating one bonusgrass near Moscow would let us have a stable configuration where we produce a worker each turn.
I do not think I have workers in range, but I will assign newly created workers to this task. Not that I have been a slouch with worker production, having produced 8 from Moscow by the end of my turn.

IBT: Moscow worker->worker, Novgorod Barracks->Granary. ( Was at an evil 7 spt. May as well grow before starting to build units. This is thought to be the unit builder for our western front.) Minsk Market->Worker ( Bleeding off a full food bin. )
English start Sistine.

30AD: Do some tileswapping between Minsk and St Petersburg so that Minsk can complete worker in one, while St Petersburg do not lose any turns on horse, nor on growth. Jungleclearing on river reveals a bonus grass :) And another clearing reveals an ordinary grass.
Hmm, sometimes I really think the AIs are cheating. Piss-poor Ottomans somehow have acquired Theology. And Vikings have ENgineering. Vikings do not have any iron, so if they ever get a tech we dont, perhaps it would be time for some pointy stick research.

IBT: Moscow worker->Settler Minsk, worker->Horseman ( Feel free to veto this, Aqueduct and Harbour would be fine choices. also. ) I am thinking on having some 15-20 horses before Chivalry comes in.
Then we could steam roll any two civs for the rest of the techs :)

50AD We have cleared another jungle square. This will take quite some time before all jungles are gone. Area around our Forbidden Palace is woefully underdeveloped. Think of shifting workers in that direction.
Jave charted all the way around Greek island now, so I do nto know if we can continue to sell maps for some change every turn. Still no sign of any other techs than Theology. We have 9 turns left on Invention. We may want to strike at Vikings before they get invention, since
Berzerkers are quite fearsome even without ships. ALso, we are getting short on defense, as I didn't build any. Thinking being that a good defense is a good offense. Need to build temple in St Pete after this horse, as it would force us to either hire a specialist, or pay 20 gpt in lux tax when it grows.
Look carefully at Moscow. After it grows to size six again, it can now be setup so it produces a worker every turn, instead of 4 out of 5 turns.
I am starting to think we should continue to build workers. There are lots of unimproved squares being worked. I do not think there is such a thing as too many workers in medieval times. If nothing else, we can use them to instagrow cities that produces their first aqueducts.
I am fairly certain I didn't let any GoTos spread into next players turns. I have collected swordsmen to our frontier, and saved our horses in Kiev. Try to get a settler to settle in our former city spot. Ought to be successful now that we can guard with a swordsman.

Also note that it is not too late to change ones mind, and rush SunTzus. No chance of killing cascade though, with Sistines out there as well as Hanging gardens.


Good luck next player.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Ender1_Team1_50AD.sav
 
Speaker,

After about an hour of digging I finally found the analysis...

This section can be found in Sirian's Training Day Game - Shadow (Post #305)

What we get from SunTzu: A) 1gpt saved in maintenance costs per city on the continent; B) Automatic barracks into every city on the continent, worth 40 shields, potentially worth the equivalent of 160g worth of rushbuying, per barracks. We have about twenty cities, and barracks in only four or five of them. (Note: SunTzu is worth more to a nonmilitaristic civ). C) In addition to these benefits, there is the factor of immediacy: we gain the free barracks immediately, which offers speedier healing to wounded units, and the chance to upgrade units anywhere any time without any need for unit shuffling, and also offers the chance to produce veteran units anywhere on the continent, including emergency rushbought units if need be. D) On top of all of that, there is the fact that we will be denying all these benefits to one of the AI's. It is worth noting that the civs who get the Pyramids and SunTzu tend to rise to the top of the pack. The AI's do not generally prioritize barracks -- you've all seen them running around with lots of regulars, even into the Industrial age. If there are any wonders where the denial factor looms large, it is these.

What we get from Leonardo's: Half-price upgrades. Um, that's about it. Depending on how many units we already have, and how many we may produce, the value of this wonder can vary greatly. Those who concentrate on infrastructure and economy, as we have in this game, get LESS benefit out of Leo for having fewer units sitting around to be upgraded. Now what is the actual economic value of this? It costs 2g per shield for upgrade, vs 4g per shield for rushbuy. Leo's drops the cost to 1g per shield for upgrade, and saves 1g per shield.

20 shields per spear, 30 pike, 60 musket, 80 rifle, 90 infantry, 110 mech.
10 shields per warrior, 30 sword.
20 shields per archer, 40 longbow.
20 shields per chariot, 30 horseman, 70 knight, 80 cav.
20 shields per catapult, 40 cannon, 80 artillery, 120 radar artillery.
30 sheilds per galley, 40 caravel, 60 galleon, 100 transport.
100 shields per tank, 120 per armor.
80 shields per fighter, 100 per jet.

The big jumps are from spear/pike to musket/rifle. Also from chariot/horseman to knight/cav and from cat/cannon to artillery. Early in the game, shields are at premium, as there are a lot of things you can build: infrastructure, culture, wonders, troops, settlers, workers, ships, scouts. Over time, the wonders dry up, the need for more settlers and workers dries up (may reopen a bit with war or navigation, but even that is limited), and a city can run out of cultural and other improvements by building them all. Then the only thing left to build is units, more units, or wealth. At that point, the emphasis shifts from shields being more at a premium, to commerce being more at a premium. Tech costs go up, weak AI's fall by the wayside, and commerce becomes the main factor, as you are further ahead to disband old units in corrupt cities for the shields, and build new modern units out of the cities with nothing else left to do, than to spend your precious cash on the upgrades.

Leo's can change the balance of that. If you have Leo's, if you bothered to invest those key shields early enough (into the wonder, or into war to capture the wonder or produce a leader to rush the wonder), you might as well take advantage and upgrade everything you own. Of course, that can also be a logistical headache for the player if only a few barracks are available and you have to do a lot of unit shuffle.

Still, unless you pull a "pillage your resources tile to regain access to obsolete units" maneuver, you only get one pass at the upgrades. That is, you get to upgrade what you already have, but then the benefit is OVER, as any new units produced will be upgraded already. It's a one-time discount, in effect, and thus easy to figure out the actual results.

We have about 20 pikes, another half-dozen spears or so, a few warriors, one horseman, a couple of catapults, one ship, one archer. We'd save 30g per pike upgrading to musket. That's an immediate savings of 600g. We'd save 40g per spear, which might be another 300g or so. If we end up with thirty muskets, we save another 20g per on the move to rifles, for another 600g saved... eventually. If we build more muskets in the interim, the savings could rise. We're looking at a certainty of about 2000g saved, or about 100g per city. Also, this gold is all up front, not doled out into the distant future, when each gold piece means progressively less and less to the overall civ, as the economy grows.

On the other hand, as with some of the barracks supplied by SunTzu, some of the upgrades made available by Leo are not worth as much as they may appear. That is to say, you can postpone some of the upgrading, safely, and use the money to speed research. Spend the money to upgrade at some later point when the value of each gold piece has been deflated. Fact is, you are probably not wise to upgrade all your units at the full price. Unless you get into a desperate situation where you pull ALL of your units into a war (leaving many or even most of your cities empty undefended), you will leave some units behind. The ones you leave behind can, in most cases, be the unupgraded units. Or... you can use the unupgraded and/or obsolete units for cheap duty like flip suppression, resistance pacification, military police or shore blockades.

Thus, with both SunTzu and Leonardo's, you want to look at the raw numbers, but also look past them to the real value. And once again, you must also consider what you are taking away from the AI's. As of the recent patches, the AI's now rigorously upgrade their units wherever they have barracks, as the money comes available. Thus, any civ who gets SunTzu will have all their units upgraded on the home continent, and any who get Leo's will upgrade their units sooner, at lower cost...
Continuing...

There can be no doubt, SunTzu's is the most valuable to us in the current situation. We get the ability to upgrade anywhere. We get 40 shields per city we don't have to spend on barracks toward building EVERYTHING ELSE sooner, and we get barracks in places we'd never bother to put them otherwise. We deny one AI universal veteran unit production as well as universal upgrade access. We also save 1gpt per city, which is 4 or 5 we were spending that we aren't any more, plus the upkeep on all the free barracks that we aren't spending. We also get a free barracks in any new cities on the continent that we settle, flip, or capture. The economic benefits are relatively minor. The real benefit is the security: we can not only upgrade anywhere we like, but even selectively upgrade, knowing that we can't get caught with our pants down when we can upgrade any units anywhere at any time.
So, after reading this, I am curious to know if your opinion on the Sun Tzu's versus Leo's has changed (for your current situation...)?

JMB
 
Another factor isn't mentioned for Sun Tzu - Indestructable barracks. Later in the game when you cities are getting bomb it is really nice to know that the barracks will never go away.
 
Definitely a thoroughly interesting analysis. With Sirian I would expect no less. I'm not really sure what the best bet would be. In our current situation, I think we could build up a huge force of 50-75 horsemen (neglecting to research or trade for Chivalry) and then use Leo's to upgrade them all and sweep through most of the continent. On the other hand, barracks in all our cities would let us work on other projects faster (I don't think money will be much of an issue in this game). I am still tending to lean toward Leo's, but I'll take the easy way out. I'll let the Training players choose and then I'll call whatever decision they make :smoke:.:)
 
@Grimjack:

The Good
Your war efforts were tremendous. Don't know what kind of Voodoo gods you prayed to (maybe Voodoocat?) but they worked well for us.:goodjob:
Saving the leader was a great move. Why make the tough decision yourself when we have a whole team to make it (or when you can let someone else make it...)
Rushing the Granary in St. Pete before the city grows is a simple play but it makes such a big difference. I'll often hold off growth to let a granary finish first.
Using the first leader to rush the FP. I consider the FP to be the most valuable building this side of the Pyramids and we saved what, 50 turns? When those cities

The Bad
First priority should have been examining all possible tile configurations for Moscow. 8 workers in 10 turns is good, but 10 workers in 10 turns is even better!
Engineering for a slave worker? I said we needed workers, but that is a little extreme...
It's unfortunate that the leader shaped our research policy, as full science on Invention is really not a great decision since the AI does prioritize it. Better would have been to do full science on Printing Press when it became available, but *shrug* leaders are leaders.
Why rush all those libraries if you were planning on going MinSci?

The Ugly
That line of Swedish in 50BC. What does it mean?

FYI, the cascade might not be out in full force. Ok, say England has been working on SunTzu in London, but they have started the Hanging Gardens in Leeds and Sistine in York. As far as I know, they will not be able to switch so the shields will be lost. Don't know if that is the case here, if all Civs have started all Wonders, but it is something to think about.
 
lurker's comment:

Originally posted by Speaker

I am still tending to lean toward Leo's, but I'll take the easy way out. I'll let the Training players choose and then I'll call whatever decision they make :smoke:

:rotfl: :lol: Thanks for the end of day belly laugh!

@ JMB--you beat me to it, I was trying to find that analysis, too.

 
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