Environment gets Bushed

[BasketCase]

I already answered it. I would need to see something temperature-wise that has never happened in the history of the planet. Meaning planetary average temperature would have to top the previous interglacial the planet experienced around 100,000 years ago. (in other words, the Earth would have to be at least two degrees warmer than it is now)

Please note the boldface words. One hot day that breaks a few records isn't enough.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That's silly.

If you once bumped your foot against a coffeetable, your foot hurts. If a week after that I step on your foot, your foot also hurts. By your logic, I can reason: hey I didn't step on your foot, because last week your foot hurt and I didn't step on it then.

One hot day doesn't mean anything, but one cold day makes all the difference in the world.

The difference is that it is known what made the planet hot 125.000 years ago. Mostly a difference in orbit of the Earth around the sun. Those events aren't taking place right now.

 

[Loki130]

Yes--merely from the fact that you asked yourself that. Human beings are the only species on Earth that cares. All others go right ahead and do whatever they want without feeling guilty or shameful.

I prefer my lawn nicely mowed, I like the flowers and bushes planted in neat rows, and I don't care if that tree in my back yard was imported from halfway across the U.S. and isn't native to my home state (I frankly have no idea where it came from, and I don't care--it look nice). And I like my steaks neatly cut into convenient slabs by the butcher--it's vastly preferable to having to head out into the bush and go kill myself a cow by hand or with a gun. Also less traumatic for the cow because a pack of wild wolves would simply tear its throat out and start eating it while it was still alive.

So instead of during your own work you decide to let others of your own species do it all for you? Life is cruel. Nature is cruel. Humans are just as cruel. Consider this list:
knives, spears, arrows, axes, swords, war chariots, catapualts, ballistas, greek fire, triremes, crossbows, trebuchets, muskets, cannons, rifles, machine-guns, tanks, battleships, laser-guided missiles, supercarriers, atomic weapons, and, of course, my favorite, thermonuclear ICBMs.
We are quite a horrible little species. So just accept that and find another argument.
EDIT: I forgot napalm

 

[BasketCase]

One hot day doesn't mean anything, but one cold day makes all the difference in the world.

Nope. Once again, that's not what I said. But then, if you don't try and twist my words around, you don't have a case, so no surprise there.

One cold day will make no difference at all. Had five of them in a row last week. What I've been saying for the last 73 global warming threads is:

ICE AGE.
That's about a hundred thousand cold days all in a row.

The difference is that it is known what made the planet hot 125.000 years ago. Mostly a difference in orbit of the Earth around the sun. Those events aren't taking place right now.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG. The current interglacial got started thousands of years ago--long before humans invented cars or factories or farming or anything else that could have altered the climate. The current interglacial occurred right on schedule, the SAME schedule followed by the last FOUR interglacials. If the natural pattern holds, this interglacial is due to end.

 

[Loki130]

We are due for an ice age, yes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to slow it down a little. It's hopeless and will probably cause more problems than it solves, but that's the human way. At any rate, speeding it up won't help anyone, unless the Inuits have their eyes on world domination.

 

[BasketCase]

Consider this list:
knives, spears, arrows, axes, swords, war chariots, catapualts, ballistas, greek fire, triremes, crossbows, trebuchets, muskets, cannons, rifles, machine-guns, tanks, battleships, laser-guided missiles, supercarriers, atomic weapons, and, of course, my favorite, thermonuclear ICBMs.

All of these--even napalm--kill you a lot faster and less painfully than being eaten alive by a pack of lions.

Your argument is the latest Tom Clancy novel at the bookstore. Sounds good, fancy cover, lots of drama. But I'm not buying it.

 

[Loki130]

All of these--even napalm--kill you a lot faster and less painfully than being eaten alive by a pack of lions.

Your argument is the latest Tom Clancy novel at the bookstore. Sounds good, fancy cover, lots of drama. But I'm not buying it.

Very well, have you looked into the tools of the Inquisition? Or any other religious or political midevil group. And I don't care what the politicians say, torture is not dead. And all of this is against our own species, for what I'm sure every other species would agree (if they cared enough) is no reason at all. Lions kill for food, and their not about to sugarcoat it. Humans kill because they're either sadists or stupid. Whichever way you look at it, we're not the shining beam of inocence in the Animal kingdom.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Nope. Once again, that's not what I said. But then, if you don't try and twist my words around, you don't have a case, so no surprise there.

That was not meant to represent you. Apologies if it looked that way. But there are people who think like that.

 

[BasketCase]

Very well, have you looked into the tools of the Inquisition?

Yes. In fact, I had more interest in that kind of thing than a normal, healthy person should have. And I'm not talking fur-lined handcuffs and massage oil, either.

Okay, maybe that last part was not necessary......

Guess what, Mr. Dismal Guy: the Inquisition, and Guantanamo Bay, and Abu Ghirab, are exceptions. They're like news articles about hurricanes. Big scary headline, lots of gory details. Generates lots of newspaper sales. But a hurricane--and the thing with the thumbscrews and hot pokers--is a rare deal.


Now, women being shot to death on a soccer field for failing to follow Islam correctly--not so rare. But most of the Paveways and Tomahawk missiles that detonate in that part of the world are aimed at dealing with the problem. Yes, it's kinda messy, but in the same way that bug spray is a messy way to deal with roaches: once the problem is dealt with, the bug spraying stops. We Americans have a pretty good idea of when to stop shooting at people.

 

[BasketCase]

We've talked about this before and I found you links to show you this is not the case.

Excuse me if I'm not bothered to go find them aghain, since I didn;t bookmark them.

And I say it IS the case (PSST: dude, you were supposed to say "this is not the BASKETCASE" ), and I posted a bunch of links to show my side of it, and no, I can't be bothered to find mine again because I didn't bookmark them either, so I guess we're at that same stalemate again.

 

[Loki130]

Yes. In fact, I had more interest in that kind of thing than a normal, healthy person should have. And I'm not talking fur-lined handcuffs and massage oil, either.

Okay, maybe that last part was not necessary......

Guess what, Mr. Dismal Guy: the Inquisition, and Guantanamo Bay, and Abu Ghirab, are exceptions. They're like news articles about hurricanes. Big scary headline, lots of gory details. Generates lots of newspaper sales. But a hurricane--and the thing with the thumbscrews and hot pokers--is a rare deal.


Now, women being shot to death on a soccer field for failing to follow Islam correctly--not so rare. But most of the Paveways and Tomahawk missiles that detonate in that part of the world are aimed at dealing with the problem. Yes, it's kinda messy, but in the same way that bug spray is a messy way to deal with roaches: once the problem is dealt with, the bug spraying stops. We Americans have a pretty good idea of when to stop shooting at people.

Please, no more justifying American wars. I am so very tired of that argument. Look, how do you think the Human race got to where it is? By being nice and 'morally superior' to all the other species? No. We asserted dominance over predators. We increased our brain size by consuming more protien. We cleared away whole forests. We got here by violence, and we're staying here (for now) by violence. And I'm not trying to be dismal-I accept the fact we're a horrible species. That's how life works-you can never get as far with roses and kind words as you can with guns and terror. And I laugh at the irony of how we used violence to create a world in which we can talk about how horrible violence is.
So please, trying to appear 'morally superior' to all the other animals is just naive.

 

[BasketCase]

Please, no more justifying American wars. I am so very tired of that argument.

......must......resist........





SADDAM HUSSEIN GOT WHAT HE DESERVED!!!

Ugh. Sorry. Just couldn't hold it.

Look, how do you think the Human race got to where it is? By being nice and 'morally superior' to all the other species?

It seemed to work out very nicely with the United States. And frankly with all the other nations currently considered to be "First World", such as England and France and Spain. You never see these nations shooting at each other any more (at least, not in the last half century or so). And guess what, these are the nations that currently run the planet.

Face it, we humans aren't that bad. Take a hit of Prozac or something. I did.

 

[Loki130]

It seemed to work out very nicely with the United States. And frankly with all the other nations currently considered to be "First World", such as England and France and Spain. You never see these nations shooting at each other any more (at least, not in the last half century or so). And guess what, these are the nations that currently run the planet.

Face it, we humans aren't that bad. Take a hit of Prozac or something. I did.

I'm not talking about individual nations. I'm talking about that eureka moment when a monkey picks up a bone and starts beating other monkeys. And as for First World countries, they achieved dominance by beating all other countries into submission, allowing them to gain a considerable lead in economics and science. They now have the luxury to be peacemakers because of their earlier colonialism and warlike ways.
And I don't need your drugs. Life's too absurd not to smile.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

And I say it IS the case (PSST: dude, you were supposed to say "this is not the BASKETCASE" ), and I posted a bunch of links to show my side of it, and no, I can't be bothered to find mine again because I didn't bookmark them either, so I guess we're at that same stalemate again.

Allright, so we have two scenarios.

1. We're in an Ice Age.
2. We're not in an Ice Age.

If 1. is true and because we cut down our CO2 emissions, it starts getting real cold, we start producing CO2.
If 2. is true and things are hotting up, we start getting rid of CO2.

There's an easy solution to 1. not to 2. If there's one thing we know how to do, it's emit CO2

 

[crabapple]

I'm not talking about individual nations. I'm talking about that eureka moment when a monkey picks up a bone and starts beating other monkeys. And as for First World countries, they achieved dominance by beating all other countries into submission, allowing them to gain a considerable lead in economics and science. They now have the luxury to be peacemakers because of their earlier colonialism and warlike ways.
And I don't need your drugs. Life's too absurd not to smile.

Not all of the western countries that are now rich made the riches by colonise people and conquer them ,like the nordic countries..

 

[Loki130]

Not all of the western countries that are now rich made the riches by colonise people and conquer them ,like the nordic countries..

First of all, we did conquer and go to war frequently. But there are a couple of non-colonial first world countries, but they mostly either inherited their good position from former foriegn rulers or used other's downfalls as oppurtunities to push themselves up. So basically they're feeding of what's left behind by those larger colonial powers.

 

[crabapple]

First of all, we did conquer and go to war frequently. But there are a couple of non-colonial first world countries, but they mostly either inherited their good position from former foriegn rulers or used other's downfalls as oppurtunities to push themselves up. So basically they're feeding of what's left behind by those larger colonial powers.

uh Finland didnt gain anything from Russia, we more likely lost awhole lot to them, and we also spent decades after independence as a "third world" country before the great modernization, we did this by ourselves, the only outside help that helped is Finlands location, but i dont call that "feeding from colonial powers" .

 

[Loki130]

uh Finland didnt gain anything from Russia, we more likely lost awhole lot to them, and we also spent decades after independence as a "third world" country before the great modernization, we did this by ourselves, the only outside help that helped is Finlands location, but i dont call that "feeding from colonial powers" .

two words: the EU
Now I'm not trying to insult anyone, (And the EU thing may be wrong) I'm just trying to say that we are no better than animals. And the very facts of being a First-world country involve profiting off of some one else's poverty.

 

[crabapple]

two words: the EU
Now I'm not trying to insult anyone, (And the EU thing may be wrong) I'm just trying to say that we are no better than animals. And the very facts of being a First-world country involve profiting off of some one else's poverty.

we already had our modernization wave before the EU... well yeah if you view it like that, but i would call the "exploiting" finland have done is very low compared to other countries

 

[Loki130]

we already had our modernization wave before the EU... well yeah if you view it like that, but i would call the "exploiting" finland have done is very low compared to other countries

It's not about Finland compared to other countries it's about humans in general. We exploit and enslave each other constantly. Seriously, what makes us so much better than all the other animals?