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Essus Again

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Fafnir13, Aug 19, 2009.

  1. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Suggestion: Let Essus build religious units from the religion it previously followed.

    Exceptions: No heroes or high priests from that religion.

    Balance Considerations:
    Players have always been free to mass produce religious units before the switch to Essus. The only difference is that you can rebuild any of those units lost.
    Also, this change gives Essus followers the much needed ability to produce units that can combat disease and root out heresy.

    Implementation Considerations:
    No new units, just coding. How much coding or how easy? Afraid I don't know that one...

    Anyways, thoughts?
     
  2. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    The Shadow of Doubt mod I made adds several 'miracles' to Esus units under the Esus state religion. It allows inquisition/disease removal for a cost. Fits much better thematically then allowing Esus players to build religious units of other religions.
     
  3. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I think it might be better to allow them to have a "false priest" and "false high priest" UU for each religion (maybe a false version of every religious UU), which wold require the religion and temple of that religion in the city but not the state religion. These units would have the same name as real priests and have what look like the same promotions, but not have access to the (same?) religious spells.


    Or, you could just make it so that religious spells require state religion, and so that priest do not have a state religion prereq. It would probably require changing some things like removing Water walking as an intrinsic promotion for Cultists, and it might be a good idea to block the AI from building priests of religions other than their state religion, except if their state religion is CoE.
     
  4. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    No, that would wreck the purpose of making religious units buildable. Essus doesn't get any units or religious spells to help out their army. Under the current system, you can accomplish this by amassing the units before the switch. With your proposed change, Essus would be even worse off, as would everyone else who engages in religion switching. Just because the state no longer actively supports the religion doesn't mean the priests aren't doing their part to earn their god's/angel's favor.
    The only problem I have with the current system is that, while you can have the units, you have to treat them like walking gold as they are irreplaceable.
     
  5. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    It would be nice to have access to a universal "Healer" unit which is unlocked by sanitation and (Wat of the Wise? Guilds?)
     
  6. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    That could work too. Guilds would be far too late. Maybe it could be tiered as well... something like:

    Apothecary

    3 :strength:
    Requires: Education Technology; Herbalist Building
    Starts with Medic

    Surgeon
    6 :strength:
    Requires: Medicine Technology; Hospital Building
    Starts with Medic, Medic II, March
    Can cast Remove Disease
     
  7. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    Not really. In your example you were following a religion and then switched to follow the Cult of Esus. Can you not then switch back to your original religion, build more priests, and the return to following CoE?

    A little bit of jumping through hoops is the price that's paid for the benefits of following CoE. After all, Nightwatch can't be built without CoE as one's state religion. If your proposal were implemented then would not other religions need to be able to build Nightwatch, for the sake of balance and fairness? Taken to its logical conclusion, this line of reasoning would remove much of the flavor of following a specific state religion.
     
  8. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Lol, dude the Esus is the most underpowered religion there is. But aside from that, I really hate the whole switching religion thing for priests. I think each religion should be self sufficient, and not rely on some kind of switch tactic. For instance, the best spell combos is Confessors + Ritualists. Order and AV?! well, it would take alot of work, but its pure sillyness. I have been known to switch for trees, per se, but never for priests. And if your that jealous of night watch, go right ahead ^_^.

    What I am trying to say is I like the Apothecary/Surgeon idea, even if it takes away from the uniqueness of the grigori medic. I think if people have a frikken hospital, they can frikken remove disease no matter what faith they follow.


    but yea ... I think divine spells should only be enabled by following that state religion. Would remove many exploits.

    I would also like for ancient forests to degrade if they are in culture not belonging to a Civ whose state religion is FOL. At the same speed as they upgraded in the first place.
     
  9. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Proposal really has very little to do with fairness/balance. Much more to do with Essus being boring. This proposal would be the simplest and easiest way to improve the religion a real and meaningful way.

    On Apothecary/Surgeon: beneficiaries are anyone following Essus and Illians (agnostic). I'm not sure why anyone else would build them. Maybe if they could cast heal (national limit needed then). Apothecary specifically doesn't seem that useful as any early religion gives you a unit with medic. 6:strength: for surgeon seems a tad overboard for such a non-combat unit. Maybe 3/6.
    I will note that medicine seems something of an off-putting dead-end. Adding a unit to it would certainly make it more worthwhile.
     
  10. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Well yea, no way can I justify giving Esus ring of fire, thats just non-intelligent. I mean, Esus does grant certain tactical advantages, but disease is something that can really place a damper on pet units. Another alternative is to allow hospitals to remove disease for units that visit them.

    Although a 3/6 or a 4/6 surgeon is probably better, its still all the way at sanitation, I dont think there would be many cases were running around with a 6 str unit at Sanatation would be OP, although I was thinking a national limit of 4 surgeons anyways. And no heal, I think that should stay with the regular religions. But disease is just so darn annoying.

    @Fafnir, if you think Esus is boring, just get open borders with as many people as you can, and spread the shadows. Eventually you will have such a strong intelligence network that no one can surprise you (full city visibility)

    Plus being able to declare war, and not be removed from borders. These two mechanics, when working together, can become quite powerful, but it requires attention, care, and proper usage.
     
  11. Skitters

    Skitters Prince

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    hang on....I always assumed that you lost Priests and High Priest if you switched religions - have I misunderstood that?

    If so I've been skipping an important part in recent Svart strategies by going FOL, getting a boost from that until switching CoE but not bothering with higher level religious units as I assumed I'd lose them anyhow.

    How about if they could build/upgrade Priests from other faiths assuming conditions are met (but perhaps not High Priests), but there would be a 50% chance that upon upgrading/building Priests would actually be False Priests who appear as their equivalent, can't use the religious spell, but can travel across borders and are able to spread CoE as per normal CoE units but perhaps have an alternate create temple spell that instead causes disruption in the target city (as well as giving the player access to view the city)

    Also, perhaps there could be events added so that when following CoE there would be a risk that "True" Priests would defect.
     
  12. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    you only lose high priests
     
  13. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    You only lose high priests and religious heroes. But if you lose a religious hero in this way, they can be rebuilt by someone following that religion.
     
  14. xalien

    xalien Prince

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    What, why? Do you hate Svartalfar or something?
     
  15. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    The more I play Esus, the more I feel they actually are balanced, just very different.
     
  16. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    The only benefits you get from adopting it are Shadowriders and Gibbon.
     
  17. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    -Easy religion spread
    -20% of your recon can go mask/unmask
    -nightwatch have mask, can upgrade to ghost/assassin, that gives you guaranteed masked assassin, even marksmen. Masked marksmen very powerful, can switch back and forth.
    -If you are lucky, with some civs you can get a maskable hero. Rathus can kill heros before wars even start. (if you are lucky enough for him to get mask)
    -magic immunity promotion, as well as a couple other interesting Esus special events
     
  18. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    I don't usually use the hidden nationality stuff. Straight warfare, with capturing cities is much more effective.
     
  19. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    Not for all civs. As Sidar I am usually at war with at least 2 nations at all times. If another starts encroaching on unclaimed territory I feel is mine, but I don't have the resources for full war with a 3rd or 4th nation. I start a limited war with them. Its also a good way to be sure to feed your units XP.
     
  20. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    What civs find capturing cities uneffective?
     

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